Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Reopened for archive purposes.

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
What lessons can Beth take from Fallout?; Don't crusify me, just hear me out first.
Topic Started: Nov 9 2010, 08:06:07 PM (266 Views)
VickyD
Member Avatar
Flying Penguin
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Let me just start out by saying that for this thread to work, everyone's going to have to ignore their TES bias and just look at how Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas all function as action RPGs. If you wanna argue that TES V should ignore the way all these games are going and kick off the "action" part of action RPG that's another thing, but that's most likely gonna happen.

So....

Beth has been saying that it's got a project in the works that it's been working on for about 2 years now, and we know that there's a gap of 3-4 years between most of their games within a title, so it's pretty safe to say that this project is indeed TES V! Using a bit more advanced deductive skills, we can probably bet a hefty sum of money that there's gonna be some sort of official announcement on TES V this upcoming year, and I'm gonna go ahead and call that the actual game shall be released Christmas of 2012.

So with TES V on the horizon, lets talk about how we want this game to function as an action RPG. I think it's pretty safe to say that Oblivion was basically a hack and slash game with really lack luster RPG aspects. These Fallout games that Beth has been cranking out lately however, have handled the balance much better, especially New Vegas. The two main things that I'm gonna look at (feel free to interject any of your other observations) are the perks system and DPS.

First off, perks. I think these things worked wonders in Fallout. If they would work well in TES is up for debate. I really liked the way how you have the ability to gain really specialized and specific abilities based on your stats. It really helps you to transform your character in a way that's more dependent on where you put your stats rather than your personal ability to press buttons. Personally, I would like to see something resembling this make an appearance in TES.

The second thing is the whole idea of the DPS. I like how there's another category for damage besides base damage which is dependent on different variables, most importantly of which, for our purposes, is your actual stats on that category of weaponry. Kind of tied in with this are the skill and strength requirements in Fallout to wield different weapons which, for no real reason, is nonexistent in Oblivion. Why this is, I don't know, but it's an amazing system to keep crappy characters from successfully wielding the BFG. In Fallout, when my inexperienced character got a hold of the sniper rifle which he desperately wanted, it was completely useless to him cus he just wasn't quite there skill wise. In Oblivion, though, my mudcrab of a hero successfully dominated with a daedric claymore out of no where.

So what do you guys think? Would you like to see a perk system in TES V? How bout more specific requirements to successfully wield weapons? Anything you would avoid from the Fallout series? Anything else positive you noticed?

Posted Image

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post on the internet.

Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanir
Member Avatar
Overlord
 *  *  *  *  *  *
What would I avoid from Fallout? Level cap, oversimplification of weapon skills(this annoyed me with Oblivion, too. My sneaky assassin should not be able to wield a claymore as effectively as a dagger, if he hasn't been training with one! And granted they were like that in FO1 and 2, but I still would like to avoid it in TESV), armor coming in full suits(understandable for certain armors, i.e. Arena Raiment), XP-based leveling system, VATS.

What would I KEEP from Fallout? Perks, Companions(took them long enough), Hardcore Mode, extensive questlines, crafting items, THROWING WEAPONS, looping jump/fall animation, and a lot more I can't think of at the moment.

I would go into extensive detail, but they pretty much speak for themselves.
Edited by Vanir, Nov 9 2010, 09:32:37 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dr. Åssom
Member Avatar
Celestial Princess
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I think this question is pretty much a non-issue here. Fallout and TES are created by different teams with different designers. Sure, they're produced by the same company, but that doesn't mean anything. It'd be like asking what aspects of Mass Effect 2 you'd like Bioware to implement in Dragon Age 2. It just makes no sense.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanir
Member Avatar
Overlord
 *  *  *  *  *  *
That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't use ideas from one in the other.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
[NUMINIT]
Member Avatar
Doge
 *  *  *  *
VickyD
Nov 9 2010, 08:06:07 PM
How bout more specific requirements to successfully wield weapons?
Yes.

Oblivion's system sucks for reasons you've stated yourself. Having a single "Blade" skill is illogical and stupid, although I don't agree with Morrowind's Short blade/Long blade system either. In that one, the longsword, closer to the length of a dagger than of a claymore, was a "long" blade, and while that may be right, it's still wielded quite differently from a claymore. Also, the Spear skill included both spears and halberds, which is obviously wrong. Same goes for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons using the same damn skill.

A much smarter weapon skill system can be found in Mount&Blade. One-handed, Two-handed, Polearms, Archery, Crossbows and Throwing. I think a combination of two would be great: you'd have a shitload of different weapon skills, but let's say that being proficient in skill X would also help you with Y. For example, being a skilled user of a broadsword, you would also have some skill in wielding a one-handed axe (as they're both one-handed swinging weapons) and a claymore (both being blade weapons). It's not like if your blade breaks in a battle and you hastily look around to find an axe, you'd be clueless to which side to hold.
The Doge of Scandinavia, inaugurated June 6, 2011

You can still call me Tabasco.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dr. Åssom
Member Avatar
Celestial Princess
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Tabasco
Nov 10 2010, 12:59:40 PM
A much smarter weapon skill system can be found in Mount&Blade. One-handed, Two-handed, Polearms, Archery, Crossbows and Throwing. I think a combination of two would be great: you'd have a shitload of different weapon skills, but let's say that being proficient in skill X would also help you with Y. For example, being a skilled user of a broadsword, you would also have some skill in wielding a one-handed axe (as they're both one-handed swinging weapons) and a claymore (both being blade weapons). It's not like if your blade breaks in a battle and you hastily look around to find an axe, you'd be clueless to which side to hold.
Except that system is just as flawed. Just like how a longsword is wielded vastly differently from a claymore, so too is a broadsword wielded vastly differently from an axe. Different blades are all wielded differently. For instance, take a scimitar and katana. Both of them are average length single-bladed one-handed swords. However, their use couldn't be more different. The scimitar's thick, heavy blade made it ideal for hacking and chopping. It was created with the intent of cutting down lightly armored units. On the other hand, the katana has a very sharp thin blade designed for quick, deadly slices. The scimitar is a versatile infantry weapon for use in a large battle while the exclusive purpose of the katana best suits it for a one-on-one duel scenario. That is why the samurai mostly used pole-arms or bows. They only drew their katanas when facing off against another samurai.
This is just one example. There are hundreds different swords, pole-arms, axes, maces, etc., and they all had their own unique purposes. Some were created to counter pikes. Others to counter heavy plate mail. Some were for close range, others for long. There were even swords to counter other swords. In order for a game skill set to be at all realistic, then it would have to be so massive and expansive that it makes Eve Online look user friendly. There would be several hundred different skills, each for a different weapon with a highly sophisticated program system to link all the skills together for the weapons that are somewhat similar. If you know how to use a long dagger, then a tanto shouldn't be that difficult. However, that gives you no knowledge on the proper use of a kukri. This is, of course, insane, and no one in their right mind would waste their time designing a game like that. That is why we must make do with what we have. We must accept that game designers are going to strongly simplify things, even if it makes no sense in a real-world scenario. Thus, the only honest way that you can examine a game's skill system is if it is fun. After all, that's what games are meant to be for, aren't they? A simple system is more fun than a complex one because then you don't have to waste time working around the system to accomplish your goals.

Now, before you go saying something about this rant, just know that you're the one who opened that "smarter weapon skill system" box, not me.
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanir
Member Avatar
Overlord
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Long Blade/Short Blade is good enough for me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
[NUMINIT]
Member Avatar
Doge
 *  *  *  *
Dr. Åssom
Nov 10 2010, 09:25:09 PM
Tabasco
Nov 10 2010, 12:59:40 PM
A much smarter weapon skill system can be found in Mount&Blade. One-handed, Two-handed, Polearms, Archery, Crossbows and Throwing. I think a combination of two would be great: you'd have a shitload of different weapon skills, but let's say that being proficient in skill X would also help you with Y. For example, being a skilled user of a broadsword, you would also have some skill in wielding a one-handed axe (as they're both one-handed swinging weapons) and a claymore (both being blade weapons). It's not like if your blade breaks in a battle and you hastily look around to find an axe, you'd be clueless to which side to hold.
Except that system is just as flawed. Just like how a longsword is wielded vastly differently from a claymore, so too is a broadsword wielded vastly differently from an axe. Different blades are all wielded differently. For instance, take a scimitar and katana. Both of them are average length single-bladed one-handed swords. However, their use couldn't be more different. The scimitar's thick, heavy blade made it ideal for hacking and chopping. It was created with the intent of cutting down lightly armored units. On the other hand, the katana has a very sharp thin blade designed for quick, deadly slices. The scimitar is a versatile infantry weapon for use in a large battle while the exclusive purpose of the katana best suits it for a one-on-one duel scenario. That is why the samurai mostly used pole-arms or bows. They only drew their katanas when facing off against another samurai.
This is just one example. There are hundreds different swords, pole-arms, axes, maces, etc., and they all had their own unique purposes. Some were created to counter pikes. Others to counter heavy plate mail. Some were for close range, others for long. There were even swords to counter other swords. In order for a game skill set to be at all realistic, then it would have to be so massive and expansive that it makes Eve Online look user friendly. There would be several hundred different skills, each for a different weapon with a highly sophisticated program system to link all the skills together for the weapons that are somewhat similar. If you know how to use a long dagger, then a tanto shouldn't be that difficult. However, that gives you no knowledge on the proper use of a kukri. This is, of course, insane, and no one in their right mind would waste their time designing a game like that. That is why we must make do with what we have. We must accept that game designers are going to strongly simplify things, even if it makes no sense in a real-world scenario. Thus, the only honest way that you can examine a game's skill system is if it is fun. After all, that's what games are meant to be for, aren't they? A simple system is more fun than a complex one because then you don't have to waste time working around the system to accomplish your goals.

Now, before you go saying something about this rant, just know that you're the one who opened that "smarter weapon skill system" box, not me.
No, you're perfectly right. I never said that being skilled in wielding a claymore would also make you be good with any other weapon, but it certainly would help with something akin to it, no? My post was about a compromise system that would be as close to realistic as sensible game mechanics would allow. IMO.
The Doge of Scandinavia, inaugurated June 6, 2011

You can still call me Tabasco.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dr. Åssom
Member Avatar
Celestial Princess
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Tabasco
Nov 11 2010, 08:34:24 AM
No, you're perfectly right. I never said that being skilled in wielding a claymore would also make you be good with any other weapon, but it certainly would help with something akin to it, no? My post was about a compromise system that would be as close to realistic as sensible game mechanics would allow. IMO.
Alright, then what about hand-and-a-half swords? They can't conceivably fall into either one-handed or two-handed because they could be used as both. If you're making a differentiation about the number of hands used, then that poses a problem. Also, you run into problems with various short blades like daggers. They may be one-handed, but they are used extremely different from other one-handed swords. They can't be used in face-to-face combat like normal weapons.
Plus, there is the uncompromisable differences between a bladed weapon like a sword and a shafted weapon like an axe or a mace. With swords, the majority of the weapon is sharp (usually). The largest part of it is for offense. However, the shafted weapons only have the dangerous part at the very end. An axe has very little to do with a sword. It's more akin to a one-handed pole-arm. Simply knowing which end to hold doesn't help. There's a massive gulf of sepparation between knowing how to use a weapon and being good at it. You could be a grandmaster at using maces, yet, if you picked up a longsword, you'd be stumped.
And I haven't even mentioned shields yet. They completely change the face of battle. Fighting with a shield is entirely different than fighting without. Plus, fighting against shields is vastly different than not. It requires an entirely unique skill set.
How do you account for these?
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
[NUMINIT]
Member Avatar
Doge
 *  *  *  *
You didn't even read my post, did you?
The Doge of Scandinavia, inaugurated June 6, 2011

You can still call me Tabasco.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nocturnal Ape
Member Avatar
i dont care what none of yall say im FRESH
 *  *  *  *  *
Limb based damage. That is all.
redsrock
Jan 21 2010, 09:26:43 PM
You're so badass, Ape. I wish I were you.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vanir
Member Avatar
Overlord
 *  *  *  *  *  *
Nocturnal Ape
Nov 14 2010, 02:15:44 PM
Limb based damage. That is all.
This too. WITH additional modifiers for whether or not said body part is armored.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lamon19
New Recruit
 *
Let me rightful move out by saying that for this object to learning, everyone's deed to make to snub their TES bias and honourable face at how Obscurity, Outcome 3, and New Vegas all suffice as activity RPGs. If you wanna debate that TES V should handle the way all these games are effort and ricochet off the "state" line of challenge RPG that's another object, but that's most liable gonna bechance.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Theme created by BloodPheasant741 of BitRecherche Studios.