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What do you think about politic?; What do you think?
Topic Started: Sep 18 2009, 06:27 AM (1,226 Views)
Lyuben
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who knows maybe if space travel becomes a nice thing... some people could form a communist colony without capitalists involved
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Velken
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Now that is a good idea Lyuben.

*begins plans for Mars base*
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Circe


@ Velken: No offense taken, it's is not really a subject I am passionate about. I am just a bit worried about space programs with political rather than scientific goals (ex/ talk of a manned mission to Mars-it seems like a waste of resources to send people to Mars for a photo-op and trip back to Earth). Scientifically useful space programs (ex/ Hubble, SETI) should be funded. I really recommend this video, it puts the size of the universe into perspective http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAVjF_7ensg&feature=related And sorry for (temporarily) hijacking the thread.
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Senhart
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I would like to add something on the "violent bad guy" idea of communist leadership. Sorry, I'm a little late.

I think it's important to put these people into their historical context. First, when Stalin came to power (remember, Lenin gave the reigns of power to Stalin AND Trotsky to wield together... Stalin hated Trotsky, had him exiled and eventually assassinated) the Soviet Union had just been through famine, severe autocratic repression, World War I, the upheaval of revolution, and an extremely bloody Civil War. In times such as these you could not expect a soft politico to rise to the top, right? Stalin was a horror. Show trials, genocide, mass-murder of the "kulaks,", willful starvation of the Ukraine, gulags like Magadan... he was evil. But at the same time, his force of will allowed the Soviets to defeat the Third Reich (don't believe American history, it was the Soviets who won the war, long before the Normandy Invasion in 1944). Anyway, so Stalin dies and does another jack-booted thug take power? No. Nikita Kruschev was no push over, but he was not a monster, he was a leader. As a matter of fact, since Stalins death I can't think of a Soviet leader who has more blood on their hands than any regular American president. The apparatus of the state, however, always remained horrid. Think repression, corruption, etc.

So I guess that I would have to say that communism does not attract worse fellows than anyone else. Totalitarianism comes dressed as the tyrant with a gun, and also the tyrant who owns the bank. Not to mention, there has never been a TRUE communist state, so we have never seen a true communist leader.

Solidarity,
Senhart :h&s:

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Senhart
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Oh yeah, Magnus Troy, this is epic win. :Russian

Quote:
 

When we talk about Communism, we should think that Communism is alive. It evolutionate with the society. Communism doesn't have the same points of views than 30 years ago. Communism changed like Capitalism change. Both system evolutionate with the societies.


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MagnusTroy

That's it Senhart. Communism is alive. It evolutionates with the societies as the Capitalism did. We should think of this......There was Capitalist and Communist tyrants.....we should see many dictatorships which were supported by capitalist countries around the world...and still are.....like in Tunisia or Saddam Hussein in the 80's......before the "Operation Dessert Storm".....before that war....Saddam was good and CAPITALIST....after that..he was a tyrant who oppressed iraqi people.....and there are more capitalit examples......Stalin was not the only one.
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Velken
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Stalin was a dictator/tyrant not Lenin
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Bubba the Great
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Senhart
Oct 9 2009, 09:17 AM
I would like to add something on the "violent bad guy" idea of communist leadership. Sorry, I'm a little late.

I think it's important to put these people into their historical context. First, when Stalin came to power (remember, Lenin gave the reigns of power to Stalin AND Trotsky to wield together... Stalin hated Trotsky, had him exiled and eventually assassinated) the Soviet Union had just been through famine, severe autocratic repression, World War I, the upheaval of revolution, and an extremely bloody Civil War. In times such as these you could not expect a soft politico to rise to the top, right? Stalin was a horror. Show trials, genocide, mass-murder of the "kulaks,", willful starvation of the Ukraine, gulags like Magadan... he was evil. But at the same time, his force of will allowed the Soviets to defeat the Third Reich (don't believe American history, it was the Soviets who won the war, long before the Normandy Invasion in 1944). Anyway, so Stalin dies and does another jack-booted thug take power? No. Nikita Kruschev was no push over, but he was not a monster, he was a leader. As a matter of fact, since Stalins death I can't think of a Soviet leader who has more blood on their hands than any regular American president. The apparatus of the state, however, always remained horrid. Think repression, corruption, etc.

So I guess that I would have to say that communism does not attract worse fellows than anyone else. Totalitarianism comes dressed as the tyrant with a gun, and also the tyrant who owns the bank. Not to mention, there has never been a TRUE communist state, so we have never seen a true communist leader.

Solidarity,
Senhart :h&s:

I disagree about the part that the Soviet Union defeated the Third Reich. If Germany didn't have the US and UK to worry about on the Eastern Front, and Africa then Germany would have sent everything it had against the Soviet Union and won. Not to mention that by the US and Japan fighting in the Pacific, prevented Japan from invading half of the Soviet Union. This is coming from a Canadian and not an American.

Oh and there will never be a true communist state because it goes against human nature of self-indulgence and greed. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The only way to govern would be through and elected body where the leader and ministers change offten to that it would not leave you enough time to form alliances. Ex. Louis XIV did this in France with govenors for the same purpose not to form local alliances and uprisings.
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MagnusTroy

I agree with Bubba when he says there will never be a true communist state. We should remember the final goal of Communism is to abolish the existence of the state itself, creating such idealized society in which the control and existence of the state is unnecesary. Unfortunetly Bubba is right, the nature of human beings make such goal very difficult(maybe impossible) to reach. Fortunetly Communism had evolutionated to democratic ideologies as Socialdemocracy, making Socialism possible in a democratic society.

About the Third Reich and the role of the real URSS in the war, there is no doubt the participation of USA and UK helps a lot to defeat Germany but I would like to agree that Germany was condemned to be defeated sooner or later because of the racistics ideals of its government by the time. Nazism was a politic ideal charged of hate against most of humanity. By numbers, Germany was alone in the insane idea of supremacy an condemned to be defeated eventually.
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Lyuben
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Perhaps a society like those at Zeitgeit could be made... i mean if computers (which are infallible) run the country isnt that the same thing as the lack of a state?
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