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| Bleach RPG Discussion; Moving it out of the CBox | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 26 2010, 09:11 AM (871 Views) | |
| Fate | May 26 2010, 09:11 AM Post #1 |
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"Can you feel it coming..."
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Since the subject of a possible Bleach RPG has been coming up a lot as of late, I figured I might as well bring all of the discussion on the subject out of the CBox and into an official thread. In the CBox I saw OG mention that he didn't know if the example fight of my Reiatsu/Focus system was in the Sim thread. I'm fairly certain it wasn't, but that example does indeed explain my original concept for the system very well, so I'll repost it here. However, there seems to be some confusion as to the particulars of the system so I'll take a moment to explain the original system before moving on to letting you guys read the example and gain a better understanding of the concept: The Reiatsu/Focus system basically begins with two caps. For simplicity's sake, let's use 1,000 as the number. As such in this example, our nameless Shinigami would have a maximum of both 1,000 Reiatsu and 1,000 Focus. Now, when a battle begins the Shinigami would start with 0 Reiatsu and with 1,000 Focus. Some have questioned this as meaning that the nameless Shinigami would therefore have no power to do anything with. This is not true. It takes no Reiatsu to swing a Zanpakutou around, however, it DOES take Reiatsu to release a Zanpakutou's and use any special abilities they might have. In truth, under the original system all actions except special abilities or releases would earn you Reiatsu at the cost of Focus. Thus the theory was that far more actions in terms of swordplay would occur in order to build Reiatsu far more quickly, as was done in the example fight below. Things were done this way to preserve the "second wind" nature of many fights within Bleach where major characters sustain injuries that would have annihilated lesser characters outright and suddenly pull off a massive upset victory (usually fueled by big, flashy attacks that required lots of power - ala Bankai). In this way, players could also decide for themselves the speed at which they wanted fights to progress by coordination. If people wanted to build Reiatsu quickly to get to Shikai forms faster, lots of swordsplay and other forms of movement or defense would be required. I didn't think it would be that hard to coordinate so I didn't see that as a potential problem. However, that's where problems crept up in the Sim battle - there was lots of Kido being used and lots of Flash Stepping going on to "make up" for Reiatsu lost casting Kido. And while it is true that Shinigami Flash Step a lot in any given fight, the vast majority of them do not rely on Kido so heavily unless they specialize in Kido. Indeed, this also resulted in other problems when people finally did build up enough to release their Shikai forms - they often weren't able to build up enough Reiatsu beforehand to attack within the same turn. So pretty much we wasted all that time releasing just to arm ourselves with an oddly shaped fork (*glances Koji's way*). That was not an intended in this system. It was designed to save up Reiatsu via swordplay first, gathering sufficient Reiatsu to both release and attack at the same time before a release was ever triggered. But, during the Sim it became obvious that most of us don't wanna wait that long. :P Anyway, don't just take my word for it. Read the example fight for yourselves and compare it to the Sim battle to see the differences between its intended and actual use:
I ended the example battle there because all of the major elements to the system were already shown by this point. I know other people have thoughts on how to improve or otherwise modify this system, so feel free to discuss them here, in this thread. |
![]() "Fate has only one purpose whether it is for good or for ill: to enforce the will of the one who should not be denied." - Pastor Earley According to this damned IQ Test I got an IQ of 136, what's yours? Free IQ Test Chara Profile: Sherrad Carns | |
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| Bishonen_Pimp | May 26 2010, 10:36 AM Post #2 |
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No need for titles.
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It actually still is; Shini Challenge I. I hadn't looked and didn't know if Loto or myself had cleaned the sim forum out. It's all the way back on page 3. I still love that example. Anyway, the idea I came up with was to not have shikai and bankai actually cost reiatsu. In the series (manga/anime w/e, I'm just calling them both collective as the series to make it simpler) whenever a character releases their shikai or more obvious their bankai, their is an explosion of energy (visually) and they actually gain more power then just more abilities. So in order to put this in numbers, a shikai release would cost 100 focus and give the user 10% of their total reiatsu (at 1000 total reiatsu pool, 100 reiatsu would be gained), with bankai, 500 focus would be used and 50% of the users reiatsu pool would become 'full" (at 1000 reiatsu pool, 500 reiatsu would be gained). The reason why I used percentages was so that a stronger character would actually seem stronger (Yamamoto's shikai release unleashes a lot more power then even Ichigo's bankai release). This would move the build-up of reiatsu to the strict use of kido and abilities. Going with this, I believe Flash Stepping should cost reiatsu also (-10 reiatsu/- 10 focus) since it does take some skill, concentration, and power to do it; though an alternate idea by Koji (and I think Fate too) was to still have a Flash Step give +10 reiatsu, but cost -20 focus instead. As for Kido, I'm still finalizing my thoughts on possible ways to tie it in more with a characters power, since stronger characters in the series have stronger kido then weaker ones even if its the same spell (ie. the difference between Byakuya's kido use and Rukia's kido use). Just off the top of my head, each kido tier (20s, 30s, 40s, 90s lvl kido) could simply by the maximum percentage of reiatsu/focus used to fire the spell. So for ie. a fighter with 1000/1000 reiatsu/focus firing a lvl 90 kido, would be able to put anywhere between 90 and 900 reiatsu/focus into the attack, while a 500/500 reiatsu/focus fighter could only put between 90 and 450 reiatsu/focus (ignoring that a 500/500 fighters shouldn't be able to do such a high lvl kido anyway lol) |
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Zekes_Rival: You see, what they don't show is that when Gato ovary-punched Nina, he aborted Kou Uraki's baby and replaced it with his own seed. Zekes_Rival: Vist was like "Oh dear! I am scared old man!" and LondoBell was like "Lol!" and then Vist was like "ROFLMAO JUST KIDDING! -neck snap-" Fate: OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. <--- ... I will kill you. :P OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. Kojiru: No, Fate is a 13 year old evil child genius bent on world domination. | |
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| Fate | May 26 2010, 11:20 AM Post #3 |
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"Can you feel it coming..."
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Well, to be honest I had considered this method as well. However, there are a few reasons why I did not go with it. The first is that I believed Flash Stepping and Kido should cost Reiatsu, not gain it. Both abilities are actions that require a fair amount of power. But, I made a concession and allowed Flash Stepping to gain Reiatsu because I didn't want to limit the second-biggest Shinigami battle skill by making it a drain only. The -20 Focus drain in this case seemed a suitable compromise. Kido however, I don't see gaining Reiatsu because it is a pure Reiatsu ability outside of the Zanpakutou's ability set. The second is that if characters' strength is measured by Reiatsu output, then characters with low Reiatsu counts (Quincy's/Bounts, most bread-and-butter Hollows) will become pointless to play. Even if we permit the Quincy Reishi theft, that'll only come into play if their opponent is kind enough to launch attacks that use lots of Reishi and/or stand in a battlefield with loads of the stuff. Both conditions can easily lead to powergaming. I didn't want that headache and at the time I had no solutions for them so I discarded it. If we can work around those problems, I'd be fine with it. The thing is though, Bleach practically calls for percentage of power solutions because the canon establishes (consistently) that while Kido and other abilities are commonly used by nearly every group in Bleach, certain characters are much more proficient at them. Hard caps would not necessarily bring this out in the RP, but percentage-based power systems would. So on that front I wouldn't mind a percentage-based system being used on the condition that some thought is spared for Quincy's and other Human-utilized powers that don't get a lot of Reiatsu to blast stuff with. Thus, we go back to my first problem. If a Shikai release for a 1k capped Shinigami was used, and thus at 10% gain he gets 100 Reiatsu, then he'd get 10 Flash Steps out of the gain. This is before we even get into the costs of him launching attacks. Even the percentage-based system does not address what I think is the core problem - Bleach is designed for swordplay and not necessarily special attack exchanges. Once that +100 boost is used up (and in the example above, Ichigo would walk into that fight with two Getsuga Tensho's loaded and ready to go - and he used considerably more than two of them during that fight) we're right back to the problem of insufficient gains being made on the swordplay to power further special attack launches. So, I'm thinking that the solution may lie with the swordplay itself. Though it may seem silly, if we upped the swordplay bonus to +20 Reiatsu while keeping it to -10 Reiatsu we'll basically double the Reiatsu generation rate. In the Shinigami's Challenge that would have been more than sufficient to have allowed us to launch more Kido spells and Shikai releases without constantly depleting our Reiatsu. Meanwhile, we can put Flash Steps at +10 Reiatsu, -30 Focus to help balance out the increased Reiatsu gains. As at that rate on a 1k cap, 3 Flash Steps will knock off 10% of your total Focus. I believe that's where the problem actually lies. The percentage-based power system for sword releases and kido spells can address every problem except for insufficient Reiatsu gain. That problem can be fixed by rebalancing the Reiatsu/Focus gain rates to get the kind of attack buildup we want while at the same time keeping the necessary drain on Focus to keep everyone competitive with each other. |
![]() "Fate has only one purpose whether it is for good or for ill: to enforce the will of the one who should not be denied." - Pastor Earley According to this damned IQ Test I got an IQ of 136, what's yours? Free IQ Test Chara Profile: Sherrad Carns | |
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| Drathmar Darkstar | May 26 2010, 11:26 AM Post #4 |
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There is no honor in war
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I like the idea of Shikai and Bankai not costing reiatsu for the reasons Noah said above, as well as the fact that many fights in the series they don't even bother with non-shikai anymore so it obviously can be used first thing in a fight. Also if you want to restrict kido by strength, make it so you can only know a kido if the level bracket it falls under is less than 10% of your reiatsu (so if you have 400 reiatsu total, you can use lvl 49 and below kido) As for flash step, the only thing with it costing reiatsu is it is also used pretty much all the time without needing any build up or anything. That in fact brings me to my one problem with this system. Shinigami don't ever seem to build up their power through attacking and defending, though I do admit in most cases the longer a fight goes on the more they put into it so the stronger they seem, so I can see it working in that way. It just seems weird for them not to be able to use special abilities right away (though, I guess they never use any outside of shikai and a few times bankai right away.) Lastly, another question... what about full-time released zanpakuto (ones always in shikai form like Ichigo's) Also since you are making everything else percentage based while not make reiatsu gain as well and costs? So with each attack you would gain +5% of your total reiatsu (or 1% or something in there.) So using the example above if you gained lets say 2%, and had 1,000 total you would gain 20 reiatsu per swing, and it would take 50 swings to get to full power. Then have things like flash step cost 3% of you focus and gain 1% reiatsu (which with the 1,000 example would keep it at -30/+10). The reason I suggest this is it makes sense for stronger chars to build up faster but also for their moves to cost more (since they are more powerful). Also... with Quincy, we only really have Ishida to go on, and he is probably low captain level reiatsu wise, same with chad who seems around Renji's level now, so its not like they CANT get that much reiatsu. Same for bount, the leader was greater than both ichigo and byakuya at the time. As for hollow, who would want to play a normal one anyway, most people would only want to play adjuchas or arrancar. The only way I could see people playing low level ones is if you had a game system (not combat) where people got stronger over time... so people could evolve their hollows through the levels. Though that brings in an issue of how to do it fairly and stop people abusing it. Maybe a certain gain per each RP topic completed? (would rather do this than post count as people can spam RP for higher post count) etc. Just some thoughts. Edited by Drathmar Darkstar, May 26 2010, 11:34 AM.
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Pilot: Sarah Lirium Mobile Suit: Theme Song/Video: Indestructible | |
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| Bishonen_Pimp | May 26 2010, 12:36 PM Post #5 |
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No need for titles.
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Idk why Quinces and Bounts are considered weak in the reiatsu department. Ishida has shown Ichigo up for power and skill almost every single fight. He was taking on and beating captains in the Soul Society Arch where Ichigo could barely take on Lieutenants, and in the latest arch he was (imo at least) doing better against Cifer in his second release then Ichigo had done in any part of their fight. I don't think you can fire 1200 reiatsu arrows a second and not have a lot of reiatsu. Ishida just uses it more efficiently then Ichigo's giant "throw everything I have at them at once" attacks. As for the rest (@Fate), I think your right, at least enough to test it and see. The +20 Reiatsu/-10 Focus for basic attacks/defense and +10 reiatsu/-30 focus will be good, though just for safety's sake, dropping the focus cost of a flash step to -20 just to see how much of a difference that makes first. @Drath The full time release zanpakuto are exceptions to the rules imo. Only Zaraki and Ichigo have them, Ichigo b/c he's plot armored up the shit (he's "special") and Zaraki I have no idea. Yamamoto is stronger then Zaraki but doesn't have a constant release and Zaraki doesn't even know the name of his sword, though as of most recently he appears to know its gender at least. Zaraki is just kinky like that I guess. But I don't think we should worry about plot based ability above what's consistent. The only qualms I have about having everything percentage based is it's a lot of math and different math for each individual player. However, it wouldn't be a bad option to go with, for kido or otherwise. Like you said, a character with 1000 caps will end up reaching their top limit much faster then a character with a 10,000 cap, however using percentages would not only keep the balance of power between a strong and weak opponent, but allow them to still reach their limit equally as fast. Thinking about it, it may even be more true to the series too. However with the above percentage way of doing it, Shikai/Bankai/etc. would have to cost reiatsu in order to prevent a imbalance of the system. So to figure that out, I think it comes down to, "do we have shikai/bankai to cost reiatsu or not". If the answer is yes we do, blanket the percentages. if the answer is no, just use the percentages for kido and the reiatsu gain of shikai/bankai/etc. But don't confuse the current state of the series with where we would start out. Imo we'd want it to start out on the lvl of the beginning of the series (kinda), not with everyone having all the powers off the bat. Which leads me into the scale problem. Imo you should have at least 2000/2000 reiatsu/focus to first achieve bankai, 500/500 reiatsu/focus to achieve shikai, with most characters (at least later on, not necessarily at the beginning) starting at 200/200 reiatsu/focus. Anyway, I don't see a problem with someone starting out as a normal rank-and-file Hollow. I actually wanted too. However the idea would be to have 'missions' ('Hunts' for Hollows, 'Missions' for Shinigami, idk just thinking out loud) for the hollow to go out and attack/eat souls, with shinigami trying to stop them every so often. And like you said have build-up/development of a character based on topics and/or post count. |
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Zekes_Rival: You see, what they don't show is that when Gato ovary-punched Nina, he aborted Kou Uraki's baby and replaced it with his own seed. Zekes_Rival: Vist was like "Oh dear! I am scared old man!" and LondoBell was like "Lol!" and then Vist was like "ROFLMAO JUST KIDDING! -neck snap-" Fate: OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. <--- ... I will kill you. :P OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. Kojiru: No, Fate is a 13 year old evil child genius bent on world domination. | |
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| Drathmar Darkstar | May 26 2010, 01:25 PM Post #6 |
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There is no honor in war
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Explain why shikai and bankai would have to cost reiatsu if everything was percentage based? It would basically just be a large focus cost for a large reiatsu gain and abilities. Like Shikai would be maybe.. 20% focus for 10% reiatsu and bankai 50% focus for 30% or 40% reiatsu. Or make it even, 20 for 20, 50 for 50 Edited by Drathmar Darkstar, May 26 2010, 01:27 PM.
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Pilot: Sarah Lirium Mobile Suit: Theme Song/Video: Indestructible | |
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| Bishonen_Pimp | May 26 2010, 06:46 PM Post #7 |
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No need for titles.
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B/c of the amount of reiatsu you gained from every little thing especially the stronger you get. Based purely on percentages, a character with 10,000 reiatsu/focus for ie. would nvr have to worry about anything. Literally 1 basic sword attack and they could launch off up to a 200 reiatsu/focus special attack. Maybe that won't actually be a problem, since there is no way to recover focus unless you stand there and let yourself get lol'd, but like I said either way it should be tested. On a side note, and adding something else, I don't think you should be killed just be going to 0 reiatsu. You start at 0 reiatsu and can bring yourself down to 0 reiatsu. I think maiming/death should be up to RP (letting your arm get cut off, or repeatedly getting cut in the same arm...good bye arm), while if you let yourself drop to 0 focus, you as before simply pass out. In order to regain focus, you must do nothing for an entire post (attack or defend) and it restores 25% of your focus by resting. But if we did, 5-10% focus cost and 5-10% reiatsu gain for shikai and 20%-30% focus cost and 10-20% reiatsu gain for bankai seems reasonable (just lowered your numbers, they seemed high to me). |
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Zekes_Rival: You see, what they don't show is that when Gato ovary-punched Nina, he aborted Kou Uraki's baby and replaced it with his own seed. Zekes_Rival: Vist was like "Oh dear! I am scared old man!" and LondoBell was like "Lol!" and then Vist was like "ROFLMAO JUST KIDDING! -neck snap-" Fate: OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. <--- ... I will kill you. :P OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. Kojiru: No, Fate is a 13 year old evil child genius bent on world domination. | |
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| Drathmar Darkstar | May 26 2010, 07:48 PM Post #8 |
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There is no honor in war
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I was going by you having 1,000 reiatsu and gaining 500 from bankai lol. Also, with your example about percentages, all the costs would be by percentage as well. So a normal sword swing would cost like 2% focus (instead of 10 focus). Ya its a lot of math but meh I think percentages work better for any variable system where not everyone is the same strength. Plus percents are easy >>. |
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Pilot: Sarah Lirium Mobile Suit: Theme Song/Video: Indestructible | |
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| Fate | May 27 2010, 06:10 AM Post #9 |
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"Can you feel it coming..."
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First off about Ishida: For all the 1,200 arrows he can fire, the amount of damage they actually do dramatically decreases as the canon progresses. And as I recall Ishida himself in his backstory confirms that as Humans Quincy do not possess significant amounts of Reiatsu. Hence their reliance on battle accessories and harnessing Reishi. That's how they gain their powers. The current system is Reiatsu-based in terms of evaluating strength which is precisely what Quincy's do not have a lot of.
Ishida's only real Captain fight against Mayuri ended ineffectually since not only did he fail to kill Mayuri he would have died from that poison he was afflicted with had he not received aid. His strength has always been his judgment true enough but really he's always been handicapped in terms of strength.
Only after he absorbed massive amounts of spiritual energy from his bug-things, and even then he still took more Reishi during the fight. He was still heavily reliant on other sources to gain his Reiatsu other then his own power. As for the error in thinking implied by the statement that later on in the series non-Shikai isn't bothered with anymore... even in Bankai swords and everything else still get used if they're present. Which is the point. It has nothing to do with non-Shikai abilities and all about utilizing the rampant swordplay of Bleach where possible as a method of advancement. Pure and simple. Now then, moving on to the point-by-point:
Already done, honestly.
It is weird, however it is also necessary. Do remember, it is a game first and foremost. The restrictions put on young characters must apply to stronger ones as well.
1. The original intention was for all character types to advance through training. Hence the Reiatsu/Focus system. 2. The simplest way is to lean on the percentages. The Reiatsu/Focus gained is a percentage of what they've used in battle. The combat system already limits how far characters can take a battle, so it will be handled fairly overall.
I still say that yes, we should. If releasing a Zanpakutou didn't cost them any energy then there would be no need for separate release states in the first place. Unless Shinigami have no concept of efficiency. :P
Mission setups never work, let's just be clear on that. Hence why I wanted character advancement to come through battles. Everyone is going to get into a fight at some point in the RP, so I had envisioned letting them get some character advancement out of doing so. Makes it more of a good investment of their time.
Think more along the lines of KO'd and less about character death. If Focus was allowed to be recovered it would then become a game exploit. Two people could advance their Reiatsu/Focus to insane levels by pushing the other to the point of Focus restoring and yet intentionally avoiding a killing blow.
Which means that overall in this case, the effect of percentages gives us no additional benefit to red tape (as whether by hard cap or percentages, relative parity in combat endurance is achieved). Thus, there is no reason to switch it over to percentages unless we go with OG's blanket percentages option. But OG's point remains true. A character with 10,000 Reiatsu could throw around and attack that would KO a beginning player. And they could do it without releasing. This is not a desired outcome, as it would lead to endless bitching about unfairness. How are younglings supposed to advance when the vets keep schooling them every time they're looked at funny? |
![]() "Fate has only one purpose whether it is for good or for ill: to enforce the will of the one who should not be denied." - Pastor Earley According to this damned IQ Test I got an IQ of 136, what's yours? Free IQ Test Chara Profile: Sherrad Carns | |
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| Bishonen_Pimp | May 27 2010, 06:44 PM Post #10 |
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No need for titles.
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Each individual arrow doesn't do a lot of damage, the power is spread out. But 1200 arrows is still a lot of effing arrows O.o But your point is valid non-the less. However as you point out before Ishida is really the only Quincy we've seen a lot of. However just one of his father's arrows looked like it caused several times more damage then his did, so it may be an issue with Ishida and not Quincy's all together.
That's basically what I was trying to get at. It just provides better game mechanics.
Separate release states is as much if not more of a story mechanic as it is a combat mechanic though. And (while this back-peddles on what I've been telling Drath) not all characters have separate release states; ie. Ichigo, and we've seen character go from unreleased to bankai without having to go through shikai first. And bare in mind that I upped the focus cost for at least bankai release compared to what you originally had it at. You set it to 200, and in my suggestion with having it gain reiatsu I had it cost 500 instead. But that is also adjustable with scale so...
Which is why I think maybe using percentages for everything might not be a good idea after all. If said percentage blanket is not used, it's going to take forever to build up reiatsu. At the very least I think bankai should let you gain reiatsu and shikai do nothing but cost focus. Characters in the series gain power when they go bankai not lose it (or I should say lose an exceedingly large amount of it, with focus being a cost, it is costing something).
Wait during the shinigami challenge test you said that we could rest to recover focus, that when u hit 0 u had to sit on your duff and get smacked and after that your focus got totally recovered. I just think having reiatsu, which is at 0 a lot during the fight be an additional qualifier for being KO'd is silly XD |
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Zekes_Rival: You see, what they don't show is that when Gato ovary-punched Nina, he aborted Kou Uraki's baby and replaced it with his own seed. Zekes_Rival: Vist was like "Oh dear! I am scared old man!" and LondoBell was like "Lol!" and then Vist was like "ROFLMAO JUST KIDDING! -neck snap-" Fate: OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. <--- ... I will kill you. :P OG: Koji should know, he confused him for a loli. Kojiru: No, Fate is a 13 year old evil child genius bent on world domination. | |
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