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| Complaints about Capitalism | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 29 2009, 10:40 AM (80 Views) | |
| Sayf Udeen Ismaeel | Sep 29 2009, 10:40 AM Post #1 |
Icon by meagan_chelsea @ LJ
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I must admit, I'm quite ignorant in this area. I come from a background where I've always had that capitalism rewards those who work hard, and socialism is a hairy fairy idea with no practical meaning. This weekend I met up with some Socialists and had a bit of a chat. I have to be honest, they seem to have a real hang up on what it means to run a business, and that capitalism is an oppresive idea. While I do see it in practise I think it's greed on part of people that makes capitalism at one end of the spectrum send others into poverty, but in all realism, to help them earn a living by buying their products (ie fair trade)is also in a way following a capitalistic way of life, is it not? Thought this would make for a good debate. Let's see where it goes. |
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| Temerit | Sep 29 2009, 09:33 PM Post #2 |
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I think it's dumb that you can think up a good idea (like camaflouge wipes for hunters) and then make it and market it and become a multimillionaire. But you can also be a surgeon that could save hundreds of lives over a decade and not make near as much. |
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| stupidstuff | Sep 29 2009, 09:58 PM Post #3 |
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Well OK then, given the last sentence, I don't have to worry about hi-jacking the thread with obscure, minor references. I'll say first that I doubt any country has an all-encompassing capitalist system. Since I live in the USA I'll refer to it from now on. The most cherished institution is the military. I mean, we are in love with it. Well, it's not much of a capitalist entity, is it? The capitalist entry in this category is Blackwater and similar mercenary corp[orations. And in keeping with its socialist trappings notice how when a soldier gets wounded the doctors don't first feel the need to ask the poor sap if he happens to have insurance. No, he'll just go ahead and try to fix him up - for free! Why should my taxes be used to pay for any injuries he sustained? This is socialism. More seriously, and I believe just as accurately, this nation does have a mixed economy. Reagan made it take a radical shift to the right, and I am hoping Obama can make an at least equally radical shift back to the left. But neither of the presidents were trying to stap out socialism or capitalism - it's a matter of which you want to emphasize. Capitalism can produce, no doubt, useful products as well as reams of meaningless plastic objects - Karl Marx himself said as much in the Manifesto. The problem with capitalism (to narrow it to just one) isn't its output but the maldistribution of its tremendous output. I think now actually the case can be made that capitalism is failing to produce goods. There is a 'race to the bottom' brought about by globalization which sees to it that production occurs in those countries which can pay its laborers the least amount in both wages and benefits. But of course this development hadn't reached its stride in Marx's time. Capitalism is an oppressive idea. I'd need at least a working description of what you mean by capitalism to agree or disagree with the statement (and capitalism rewards those who work hard isn't specific enuff.) Take for instance the current health care insurance debate here - capitalism rewarded a worker for staying at his job for thirty years. It then foreclosed on his house when he spent his saving paying for some needed operation he couldn't afford. How did capitalism treat this man? Good can come about from capitalism. Good can come about from socialism. I prefer the latter, but I'm not about to say it's all or nothing. |
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| Redneck | Sep 29 2009, 10:48 PM Post #4 |
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Any pure form of any economical system seems destined to fail. The US is not 100% capitalist, it has had to mix in some socialist idea's here and there.(such as social security) the US has had to do it because it's pure form of capitalism failed spectacularly in the late 1920s(as did the rest of the worlds). Communism in its pure forms has shown it will fail over and over again. The Soviet Union went the way of the Dinosaur and North Korea is a total mess. China was about to go that way too, but it had to blend in aspects of capitalism to create a uniquely Chinese version of Communism. The natural human greed is both a positive and a negitive. The greed furthers ambition and makes the system grow. Yeah its sad that you can become a billionair off selling pet rocks, but it's also good. It means anyone with any idea can potentially make a lot of money. Take that aspect away and the population becomes lathargic and growth will eventually stop. The key is to have the right amount of capitalism to socialism(or regulation) so that everyone gets at least a sliver of the pie. The US has actually done a very good job of this. Our poorest person is not as bad off as the majority of the people in Africa. If you let the system be totally free than you end up with problems like we have now(and I wouldn't say its totally free in 2008), where the system grows on falacies and promises. Capitalism isn't perfect, but nothing in life is. |
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| gingerwitch28 | Oct 11 2009, 02:12 AM Post #5 |
twenty-first century ennui
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China is not Communist. Since Deng Xiaoping took over, it's adopted all the freedom in terms of economics yet none of the political freedom. There's a name for that, it's called Fascism. What I dislike about Capitalism is that so many people seem to believe that if the market is free, people are naturally altruistic and the bad things that can arise from a Capitalist system won't, because people are allegedly naturally good. That, I'm sure we all know, is a load of crap. Yet these same people are completely opposed to any sort of Socialist aspects being incorporated into their economic and social systems. If people truly had the interests of others at heart, we would be a lot more Socialist than we are. But clearly, since people are douchebags, we're Capitalist. |
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| stupidstuff | Oct 11 2009, 10:04 AM Post #6 |
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Aha good point re: China and communism. I wonder though about the attribution of fascism - particularly since it is so in vogue these days. It seems like we're all fascists now. Of the following which do you consider to be valid in regard to China? For that matter, do you consider the list of attributes to be a reasonable one? I consider points 9 and 10, particularly, to encapsule the primary distinguishing aspect of fascism. What is the state of corporate power in China? I'm not sure. I doubt that religion plays a particularly important role in China. I know its official stance is that of atheism. Clearly it includes these: 2, 6, and 14. I'm not sure about the rest. Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each: 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. 4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. 5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution. 6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. 7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. 9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. 10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. 14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm Edited by stupidstuff, Oct 11 2009, 10:11 AM.
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| gingerwitch28 | Oct 11 2009, 10:36 AM Post #7 |
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twenty-first century ennui
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Well obviously since Deng Xiaoping took over - the Chinese probably have a term for it like the Russians had glasnost and perestroika and whatever - things have loosened up a lot. Most, if not all, of those really did apply during Chairman Mao's tenure. I would say that 4, 9, and 13 also still apply. I don't know about 10. To be honest I specialise in 1900-1949 and then afterwards I mostly know China in the context of Korea and Vietnam. What's disappointed me so much about China is that pre-1949, heck, you'd have been rooting for them too. Now, Jiang Jieshi in the period 1927-37, he WAS Fascist. He even had his own 'Blueshirts'. |
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| gingerwitch28 | Nov 9 2009, 02:33 AM Post #8 |
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twenty-first century ennui
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Free market flawed, says survey By James Robbins Diplomatic correspondent, BBC News Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, a new BBC poll has found widespread dissatisfaction with free-market capitalism. In the global poll for the BBC World Service, only 11% of those questioned across 27 countries said that it was working well. Most thought regulation and reform of the capitalist system were necessary. There were also sharp divisions around the world on whether the end of the Soviet Union was a good thing. Economic regulation In 1989, as the Berlin Wall fell, it was a victory for ordinary people across Eastern and Central Europe. It also looked at the time like a crushing victory for free-market capitalism. Twenty years on, this new global poll suggests confidence in free markets has taken heavy blows from the past 12 months of financial and economic crisis. More than 29,000 people in 27 countries were questioned. In only two countries, the United States and Pakistan, did more than one in five people feel that capitalism works well as it stands. Almost a quarter - 23% of those who responded - feel it is fatally flawed. That is the view of 43% in France, 38% in Mexico and 35% in Brazil. And there is very strong support around the world for governments to distribute wealth more evenly. That is backed by majorities in 22 of the 27 countries. If there is one issue where a global consensus seems to emerge from the survey it is this: there are majorities almost everywhere wanting government to be more active in regulating business. It is only in Turkey that a majority want less government regulation. Opinion about the disintegration of the Soviet Union is sharply divided. Europeans overwhelmingly say it was a good thing: 79% in Germany, 76% in Britain and 74% in France feel that way. But outside the developed West it is a different picture. Almost seven in 10 Egyptians say the end of the Soviet Union was a bad thing and views are sharply divided in India, Kenya and Indonesia.   --------------------- So, thoughts...? |
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6:53 PM Nov 23
