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Vent-ilation
Topic Started: Jan 15 2017, 02:22 AM (1,635 Views)
+transcon+
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I find it strange when people who are so pro-Constitution, especially so lustful of the Second Amendment, forget there are other parts to the Constitution as well... like a mechanism to alter the Constitution when something no longer works.

When you have a right to obtain a weapon, but you do not have the right to obtain food, we have a problem.

*two cents*
Edited by transcon, Feb 17 2018, 02:22 AM.
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~Alkarii~
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I never said people didn't have the right to obtain food (granted, you also never said I did, either, so there is that, at least).

Also, at no time did I ever say BLM was responsible for that one guy killing police officers, or his decision to target white cops specifically (because that is what the news reported).

In fact, back then I believed it was because he believed that white cops were going around just randomly killing black people without any cause at all, because when you see the media sensationalizing something in such a way to stress you out so you'll keep watching and see the ads for antidepressants (funny how that works), you get the idea that things are one way when they can be completely the opposite.

For example, apparently statistics show violent crimes as a whole are decreasing, but fear of crime is increasing. Not entirely sure if that's the news or what.

Also, black and Hispanic cops are involved in shootings at about the same rates, with a similar ratio of justified to unjustified, but I never heard that from the news; I had to do an internet search.

I have said before (not here, though) that it makes no sense for something like this to happen if the authorities have been notified beforehand. Apparently, this guy posted a comment on YouTube, using his own name, that he wanted to be a professional school shooter, but they didn't look into it.

Now, the guy I know who said I'm the reason someone's kids are dead has also been in favor of completely banning guns, though has said he'd settle for less than that, but more than we have now, and swears nobody would be affected by it. The problem there is that it's adding redundant layers, and is seen as a punishment by those who are responsible and decent folks.

I'm perfectly fine with the idea of checking to see if someone has a history of mental illness and violence, and prohibiting them from purchasing or owning a weapon. As I'd said, it's not a big deal, so far.

The problem comes when we see that the increased measures being proposed don't stop gun violence. For example, Australia still has a gun problem, in spite of how hard it is to get a gun there. Not only that, but Australia and the US define mass shootings differently. In Australia, a mass shooting is when five or more people are killed by a shooter, not counting the shooter. In America, it's four or more injured or killed, including the shooter. So of course you'll see that, as far as Australian law is concerned, mass shootings have stopped. In America, some guy going through a bitter divorce loses his mind and shoots both of his kids, then his would-have-been-ex-wife, and then himself counts as a mass shooting, but not in Australia.

And the guy took offense to me saying that gun control will not stop a person intent on committing a crime from breaking the law again to acquire one. Hell, just a few years ago, some rapper (T.I., I think) got busted for having a collection of firearms he wasn't supposed to have, because he had a prior felony conviction.

Not only that, but just after the Orlando shooting the year before, I'd said again that removing guns from the equation doesn't make mass murder impossible, and someone threw a fit about that, saying that it was stupid of me to think that, and of course more gun control will work... And a short time later, someone in France used a truck (or was it a van?) to kill more people than the Orlando shooter did. The guy also had a rifle (don't know if it was semi-auto or not; he apparently didn't use it) and grenades. I think firearms of the sort that he had are illegal in France, but there's no way France would allow a person to legally obtain grenades. Yet, he still had both, according to the news.

Which is troubling to me. Societies put laws into place to stop something from happening, only to see that which the law is meant to stop still happens, albeit in a different way.

So suppose that the pro-2nd amendment crowd agrees to expanding the background checks we already have. I found out after making my last post (and was too sleepy this morning to edit it, sorry) that there's inadequate mental health reporting, and that the checks only go back so far, when I had been thinking that if a court of law ever judged a person mentally unfit, the only way they'd be able to be legally allowed access to a gun again would be to have a licensed psychiatrist evaluate them and present to the court that the person is stable and not a potential threat.

But what happens when expanded background checks don't stop gun homicides? I hear Illinois has a requirement to have a license to own a gun at all, and yet unlicensed folks are getting guns to commit crimes in Chicago. So then if Illinois really does require a license, that law isn't stopping anything from happening.

So when the background checks and licensing don't stop these things from happening, what's the next push? An all out confiscation? How will that stop criminals from hiding their guns where the law won't know to look (water tight container, buried in the woods somewhere)?

I know you said you aren't calling for an all out ban, but there are politicians in Congress right now who want a ban.

Not only that, but think about what else could happen as a consequence. With more guns in private ownership than many militaries even have people (and I think there's more than any military has, period, though obviously not nearly of the same capabilities), that would be a recipe for disaster, most likely another civil war.

Further, look at our history. The reason for the second amendment was because the colonies were invaded by their own military, at the orders of their own government. There were those who didn't trust the idea of the newly formed United States having a standing army, or even a federal government, after what had just happened. So, we got the second amendment, intended to ensure that the people would have the means to fight back against tyranny even if it came from our own government.

Now, the idea of such a conflict may seem highly implausible, but think about what's been going on with the government and government agencies lately, and the things that keep coming to light.

And on top of that, everyone on the left wants to attack the second amendment, but what about that part of the first that grants freedom of the press? The news isn't even required to tell the truth or verify their information. That story ABC ran about 18 school shootings this year? Their source included incidents like a guy going onto the parking lot of a school and shooting himself, and the school had already been shut down and was awaiting demolition. Another one was a stray bullet being fired onto school property and hitting a wall. In one, a cop was sitting on a bench when a child reached out and pulled the trigger of his sidearm. At one college, a criminal justice student picked up what they thought was a training prop, pointed at a paper target on the wall, and found out it wasn't. Some guy shattered the window of a school bus full of kids with a BB gun, and it's a school shooting.

In fact, most of them weren't even close to what we think of when we hear "school shooting".

But we can't just abandon the first amendment, now can we? I had thought the "fake news" Trump was talking about was just the clickbait sites people keep sharing on social media, but then I saw that animation one of them supposedly ran showing how a bump stock (stupidest product ever, btw; not even required for bump firing) works, yet that was actually a collapsible stock, and if it were to ever move like that when the weapon is fired, it would mean the thing is broken. Or that one clip of demonstrating how much damage an AR-15 could do to a watermelon, but they actually showed a shotgun (most likely a 12 gauge) instead of an AR-15.

If I weren't supposed to have been asleep several hours ago (work tonight), I'd have taken the time to dig up those videos, which I'm actually hoping weren't really ran by the news, and just faked versions someone posted.
Since my liver is larger than my heart, does that mean I'm designed to drink more and care less?
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+Lt. Jessie+
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I'm going to make this brief because I think we're proverbially hitting a dead horse here (pardon the pun) and there seems to be one major concept that seems to resurface a lot.

Media - Take what you see on the news, on the internet, on blogs, on any sort of social media with a grain of salt. While there are those rare outlets that actually report the real thing and quite a bit of them warping and skewing the facts, please do not mark these as absolutes. Unlike the days of yore, there are many outlets who will stretch and skew the truth to get ratings, or better yet create parodies or fake headlines to gain attention. Please use discretion when trying to filter the truths from the fakes.

Society as a whole has changed a lot. Unfortunately, very little remains of the norms applicable to society now as opposed to then. Yes, changes must be made, but not everyone will accept them, or better yet would think it tyrant at times. There is just no happiness between the governing party and the civilians. And why is that? People pull out different cards to justify what they are defending: gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, politics, opinions with some sort of backing evidence (Either in truth or fabricated), personal agendas... Not all of these are very clear cut either because someone somewhere will find a way to shameless plug themselves in and make it a deal about them.

People have become more or less tribes who will do what they can to make their agendas known, whether or not they know it will do good or harm society as a whole in the long term. People will always think they are higher than others and should be the ones in control. To me, that's just another way of saying, "I'm an armchair commander. I can do better than anyone else because I know everything that will happen if this happened." It's just not that simple. Too many factors, too many opposing ideas, too much disagreeing versus agreeing; just the tiniest proverbial crack will cause not just that tribe to fall, but also bring down the entire society with it.

Again, it's not just that simple.

Now, I will step out of the topic for the time being, but remember: Since this is a highly sensitive subject, I will continue to monitor the thread. Again, you are allowed your opinions, but for the sake of making sure that facts are straight, please try to post evidence of what you're trying to debate over. This will make things much clearer, especially for those who are a bit not-so-caught-up with news and help debunk or solidify any arguments being made, in a very level, civilized manner.

Also, bear in mind that any violation of the forum rules will be subject to my jurisdiction.
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~The Boss~
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Ok, so I don't wanna prolong this much more, because it's clear that it's not really going anywhere productive. However, I do wanna clear up just a few things.

Quote:
 
Also, black and Hispanic cops are involved in shootings at about the same rates, with a similar ratio of justified to unjustified, but I never heard that from the news; I had to do an internet search.


And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
Just don't let it be a black and a white one
Cause they'll slam ya down to the street top
Black police showing out for the white cop


- Ice Cube, "Fuck tha Police," 1988

Way to break some news there, man.

Quote:
 
Not only that, but just after the Orlando shooting the year before, I'd said again that removing guns from the equation doesn't make mass murder impossible, and someone threw a fit about that, saying that it was stupid of me to think that, and of course more gun control will work.


That is absolutely not what happened.

What happened was you started going on about false flag conspiracy theories while saying you didn't want to sound paranoid or alarmist, and I politely informed you that that was in fact exactly how you sounded. And then, after more conspiracy theories, Alissa clapped back because all you seemed concerned about was yourself and your guns and whether or not Obama was gonna take them away (he didn't) while showing little to no compassion for the 49 people who were just murdered, targeted because they were gay.

Go back and read the posts. The only people who were talking about gun control were you and DA. In fact, you guys were talking about everything but the people who were killed. The reason people got mad at you was because you didn't really seem to care about the people who just died very violent deaths.

If that's what happened somewhere else, please clarify, but that is not what happened here.

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I had thought the "fake news" Trump was talking about was just the clickbait sites people keep sharing on social media


What Trump calls "fake news" is any news he doesn't like, even it its 100% true. Because he's a child.
Edited by The Boss, Feb 19 2018, 02:45 PM.
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~Alkarii~
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Sorry, what I meant when I mentioned the Orlando shooting and all that in my other post, I forgot to mention that conversation wasn't with anyone here.

And as for my mentioning of fake news, there was a recent bit by NBC 4 out of Columbus showing the damage an AR-15 can do to a watermelon... Only it wasn't even close to an AR-15, unless by close you mean "firearm requiring two hands."

Here, take a look.

A large portion of the anti gun crowd just assumes that a new law will make any difference. Yeah, it might prevent certain acts from happening, but only for those willing to obey the law. So if someone is inclined to kill, and disregard the law (remember, taking a firearm onto school property is illegal unless you're on-duty law enforcement, and that didn't stop anyone who decided to do it), it's not really a solution.

So what happens when a person realizes he can use speed loaders on a revolver, and reload fairly quickly? He wouldn't even need a semi-automatic rifle or pistol. And as far as restrictions on those semi auto rifles go, if you look at all the murders committed with firearms (somewhere around 10k; unfortunately at this time the most recent figure I'd found online was from 2013), those kind of rifles are usually only used when someone goes on a rampage like the one last week. So, you're not even making much of a dent, nor are there any realistic solutions being offered to deal with the rest, which are mostly gang related, usually carried out by people who had prior convictions.

And many (but certainly not all) want to say things like "we gotta ban all the guns, so criminals can't get ahold of them!"

To that, I just gotta ask: Aren't drugs illegal? People get ahold of those, don't they?
Since my liver is larger than my heart, does that mean I'm designed to drink more and care less?
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~Alkarii~
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Well...

Fuck.

Many implications, and none of them are good, all because some closing manager didn't close a loading bay door, even with a truck in the way. All it takes is one small bit of carelessness, and things suddenly become likely to go really crazy. So, if you happen to hear something big in my area on the news and you don't hear from me again, you'll know why.
Since my liver is larger than my heart, does that mean I'm designed to drink more and care less?
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+Lt. Jessie+
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...It's cold...

...It's freaking cold...

You guys who are used to the really cold weather, go ahead and laugh. 45 degrees is not something a desert birdie is used to, even in the winter. Personally, I like the heat, dry heat especially; none of that humid stuff. A little worried about my vegetables in the cold but they should be fine since they were hardened off already. The seedlings/sprouts are still in my room until they're stronger and the weather is more tolerable. The lettuce might be able to withstand it since they're cool-weather veggies.

This week is gonna suck if it stays this cold... *Fluffs up feathers* Might have to brew a pot of ginger tea at this rate.
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+transcon+
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Ah, this is what I was looking for:

The Perfect Solution Fallacy (also known as the 'Nirvana Fallacy') is a false dichotomy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution to a problem exists; and that a proposed solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented.

Besides, you could just tell your boss that when locks were made to deter thieves, it didn't completely solve the problem of theft, therefore locks were pointless as a thief who really wanted those weapons would've gotten them anyway.
Edited by transcon, Feb 20 2018, 01:52 AM.
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~Alkarii~
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That is certainly true: Locks can be picked or just plain broken.

But I'm also curious as to how that guy knew that the door to the loading bay was open. The latches to those are on the inside, and it's entirely possible he's either a current or former employee.

EDIT: That is, assuming the door was open, and he didn't know how to flip the latch from the outside.
Edited by Alkarii, Feb 20 2018, 01:46 PM.
Since my liver is larger than my heart, does that mean I'm designed to drink more and care less?
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~Alkarii~
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Well, shit... The youngest of my mom's three brothers has cancer, possibly the same kind that their father died from back in 1986, before I was born. This particular uncle is also four years older than my grandfather had been when he died.

Hopefully he can pull through, though. There's been a lot of advances in the past few decades in regards to cancer treatments.
Since my liver is larger than my heart, does that mean I'm designed to drink more and care less?
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