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Hey look, a title.
Yes; it should be its own format, between OU and UU. 5 (50%)
Yes; but it should be used only in extreme circumstances. 5 (50%)
No. 0 (0%)
Total Votes: 10
The BL tier: Do we need it?
Topic Started: Jun 23 2009, 10:41 PM (166 Views)
Sheed
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The BL (Borderline) tier is traditionally used as a ban list for UU that includes Pokemon too underpowered for OU play. However, that means that the Pokemon generally just sits in limbo, not really seeing play in either format. Should we get rid of the tier on PP just to 'save' these Pokemon, use it sparingly to keep a fair number of Pokemon in it, so the BL can be a format, or use the BL list sparingly? Please post your vote and opinions.
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TheOedipusRex
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First I know that this thread is about the need, or non need, for Borderline Tier and what the definition of that tier would be. In my original response I only dealt with the need for a Borderline Tier and its definition. However, in order to fully debate the need, or non need, of the Borderline Tier and its definition, the Borderline Tier needs to be put in context of the entire Tier System and the definitions of each other tier.

I feel that the Tier System shown below is the best option for Poke Portal's needs. There are 4 tiers in this system, which are similar to the conventional system already in place. These tiers are more accurately named. An explanation of which Pokemon should be included in a tier follows the name of the tier.

Proposed Tier System
 


Ban List 1 (BL1)
This is the conventional Uber Tier. A Pokemon should be in Ban List 1 if it is
~~ Broken in Format 1
~~ Broken in Format 2


Format 1 (F1)
This is the conventional Overused Tier. A Pokemon should be in Format 1 if it is
~~ Broken in Format 2
~~ Not Broken in Format 1


Ban List 2 (BL2)
This is the conventional Borderline Tier. A Pokemon should be in Ban List 2 if it is
~~ Broken in Format 2
~~ Not broken in Format 1
~~ It would be one of the weakest of Format 1 and thus would show a good distinction between the power of Pokemon in Format 1 and Format 2.


Format 2 (F2)
This is the conventional Underused Tier. A Pokemon should be in Format 2 if it is
~~ Not included in Ban List 1
~~ Not included in Format 1
~~ Not included in Ban List 2



* Ban List 1 and Ban List 2 represent a minority of all Pokemon. Although there are no positive or negative quotas for the amount of Pokemon in each independent list, both lists should be independently as small as possible while still confirming with their respective definitions and the definitions of Format 1 and Format 2.

* Format 1 and Format 2 represent a majority of all Pokemon. Although there are no positive or negative quotas for the amount of Pokemon in each independent formats, both formats should be independently as large as possible while still confirming with their respective definitions and the definitions of Ban List 1 and Ban List 2.

* All of the above tiers only include the highest evolution of each species. All Pokemon that are not fully evolved are put into a separate classification called "Not Fully Evolved" (NFE). A Pokemon can be argued out of their NFE classification and suspect tested into a tier. For example, under this system Wynaut would be classified as NFE and Wobbufett would theoretically be in Ban List 1. Wynaut could be argued and suspect tested into Ban List 1, or Format 1, or Ban List 2.

* The term "suspect" was used in the previous paragraph. A suspect is a Pokemon who is being considered for being moved into another tier or into a tier from a NFE classification. Suspect testing is when the suspect is play tested out in the tier it may be moved into. Based on the results of the battles and the suspect's performance in those battles the suspect testers, the people play testing the suspect, will vote on to change the Pokemon's tier/classification. If a super majority of 2/3rds of the suspect testers vote for the change in the suspects tier/classification it's tier/classification is changed. If that super majority is not reached then the another vote will be taken about if to continue suspect testing. If the super majority of 2/3rds of the suspect testers vote continue testing the suspect testing will continue. If that majority is not reached then the testing ends. This pattern continues until the suspect's tier/classification is changed or testing ends. Only one suspect per metagame may be tested at a time. Suspect testing rules can also apply to testing new or changing existing clauses.




Broken was used a lot in the definitions in the above Tier System. The following explains in further light what the definition of broken is.

Definition of "Broken"
 


A Pokemon is broken if that Pokemon has any number of the following characteristics:


Offensive Characteristic:
A Pokémon is broken if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams, of the format in question, with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic:
A Pokémon is broken if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the teams, of the format in question, with little effort.

Support Characteristic:
A Pokémon is broken if, in common battle conditions, it can, with little effort, consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep or stall a significant portion of the teams of the format in question.




Now that that is out of the way, my proposed Tier System would create 6 metagames:


Metagames in this Tier System
 


Unlimited Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Ban List 1
~ Format 1
~ Ban List 2
~ Format 2
~ NFE

Standard Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Format 1
~ Ban List 2
~ Format 2
~ NFE

Limited Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Format 2
~ NFE



Suspect Unlimited Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Ban List 1
~ Format 1
~ Ban List 2
~ Format 2
~ NFE
~ The suspect going under testing

Suspected Standard Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Format 1
~ Ban List 2
~ Format 2
~ NFE
~ The suspect going under testing

Suspect Limited Metagame
Pokemon from the following tiers and classifications may be used in this metagame
~ Format 2
~ NFE
~ The suspect going under testing.




Rules for all Offical Poke Portal Battles
 


~ Evasion Clause
~ Freeze Clause
~ OHKO Clause
~ Sleep Clause
~ Soul Dew Clause
~ Deep Sea Tooth Clause
~ Species Clause
~ Strict Damage Clause
~ Timed Battle Clause





Now as for the main matter of this thread

A Borderline or Ban List 2 Tier is very necessary to tier Pokemon properly. Pokemon in these tiers show the maximum power a Pokemon can have until they are no longer considered UU of Format 2 and must be considered OU or Format 1.

In order for the borderline to be effective it needs to have enough Pokemon for the line to be visible and but it cannot have too or else the line loses it's clarity and distinctness. In short, BL2 needs to be a small as possible, but no smaller.

This means that Borderline cannot be it's own metagame. If it is its own metagame it's line of division between OU and UU becomes meaningless and this only complicates the issue. However based on the system I have provided above it would be possible to create a another metagame below that of UU. Even so, in order for this metagame to be properly established the rest of the tiers would need to be established first.


tl;dr: I think that the system I have created is not only a compromise on all fronts, but gives everyone essentially what they want. For people who follow my line of thought, we are satisfied because there are at least two viable and distinct metagames with a proper border between them. For those who want another metagame this system is flexible enough that another one can be established under UU.
Edited by TheOedipusRex, Jun 24 2009, 02:05 AM.
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Xepher
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We should make a BL format. There are a couple of BL Pokemon that I'd LOVE to use in battle.
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Elevator Music
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Well BL by definition isn't a balanced metagame.... so good luck trying to find BL battles.

I think BL needs to stay. The underlying question isn't really "Do we want BL", it's "How big do we want our OU list to be", since that's right where the BL pokemon are going. I actually prefer a smaller OU list (of around maybe 35-40 pokemon).

A conventional Uber/OU/BL/UU(possibly NU with a ban list separating it) tier list is fine.

EDIT- I disagree with the sentiment that OU and BL are practically the same thing, or at the very least the probably false logic saying because of that we do not need a BL tier.

I personally use OU as a list of "the good pokemon". The pokemon that I should watch out for; aka a threat list. Adding pokemon from BL to OU clutters up my threat list, mostly because I don't need to check if I'm Pinsir weak when I know I'm not Heracross weak, etc.

But even if you don't agree with that, why is separating the good pokemon from the 'decent' pokemon (which is in essence what BL is) a bad thing?
Edited by Elevator Music, Jun 24 2009, 08:42 AM.
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purapura
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Elevator Music
Jun 24 2009, 08:31 AM
Well BL by definition isn't a balanced metagame.... so good luck trying to find BL battles.

I think BL needs to stay. The underlying question isn't really "Do we want BL", it's "How big do we want our OU list to be", since that's right where the BL pokemon are going. I actually prefer a smaller OU list (of around maybe 35-40 pokemon).

A conventional Uber/OU/BL/UU(possibly NU with a ban list separating it) tier list is fine.

EDIT- I disagree with the sentiment that OU and BL are practically the same thing, or at the very least the probably false logic saying because of that we do not need a BL tier.

I personally use OU as a list of "the good pokemon". The pokemon that I should watch out for; aka a threat list. Adding pokemon from BL to OU clutters up my threat list, mostly because I don't need to check if I'm Pinsir weak when I know I'm not Heracross weak, etc.

But even if you don't agree with that, why is separating the good pokemon from the 'decent' pokemon (which is in essence what BL is) a bad thing?
So this dude got it before me. D:
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TheOedipusRex
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Quote:
 
Well BL by definition isn't a balanced metagame.... so good luck trying to find BL battles.


I agree. BL was never supposed to be a metagame. Trying to make it a metagame will not work.

Quote:
 
I think BL needs to stay. The underlying question isn't really "Do we want BL", it's "How big do we want our OU list to be", since that's right where the BL pokemon are going. I actually prefer a smaller OU list (of around maybe 35-40 pokemon).


While I'm not a fan of arbitrary quotas 35-40 sounds ok with me, but to give ourselves some flexibility it should be more like 35-45 give or take a few in either direction.

Quote:
 
A conventional Uber/OU/BL/UU(possibly NU with a ban list separating it) tier list is fine.


I agree with the theory behind this and it is the theory that I put into play when making the tier system in my first post. I think it would be cool to have a third format, but the problem is where we are going to put it. Making BL a metagame for "decent" Pokemon doesn't work because the Pokemon used in UU are already the "decent" Pokemon. I'm all for making a tier below UU, but don't mess the the OU almost perfect OU system that is already here.

Quote:
 
EDIT- I disagree with the sentiment that OU and BL are practically the same thing, or at the very least the probably false logic saying because of that we do not need a BL tier.


In practice they are the same thing because both can be used in OU and either can be used in UU. We do however, as I've been saying, do need that BL as a division between OU and UU.

Quote:
 
I personally use OU as a list of "the good pokemon". The pokemon that I should watch out for; aka a threat list. Adding pokemon from BL to OU clutters up my threat list, mostly because I don't need to check if I'm Pinsir weak when I know I'm not Heracross weak, etc.


I see what you are saying. Your example is flawed as Heracross is in OU and Pinsir is in NU. A better example is I don't need to check if I'm Raikou weak if I know I'm already Jolteon weak. Although I agree with the sentiment behind not wanting a clutter OU list and having great threat lists to use, I feel that once the tiering actually gets we can work on making a great threat list for everyone to use. We should not be excluding a Pokemon from a tier it by definition fits into because another Pokemon in that tier already does it better.

Quote:
 
But even if you don't agree with that, why is separating the good pokemon from the 'decent' pokemon (which is in essence what BL is) a bad thing?


We just have to watch our definition of "decent" because decent is a subjective word. What is decent to you might not be decent to be. I was under the impression that the Pokemon used in UU were the decent ones, the ones in OU were great, and the ones in BL were too good for UU but not as great as the ones in OU. Because of this they serve a borderline, a necessary borderline.

td;lr:

I believe
~ We need a limited BL Tier properly separate OU from UU.
~ We need better definitions of what exactly does in each tier
~ We need a better definition of "broken" or, "what is too powerful" for a certain metagame
~ The want of some for a 3rd metagame is legitimate, and possible when put under UU, not between two existing tiers.

~ Lastly I believe that the tier system I provided would be the best system for all of our needs. Under that system we have better defined tiers, we have a limited BL to separate the metagames, we have a better definition of broken and there is still a third metagame that can be created!


tl;dr version 2: Under this system everyone gets what they want and everyone would be happy.
Edited by TheOedipusRex, Jun 24 2009, 11:45 AM.
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Bonkenhi
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Espeon and Umbreon are likely to be shoved into OU without a BL group.

Umbreon might still be useful in OU, but Espeon would get completely crushed in OU, and would be broken in UU imo.
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TheOedipusRex
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I don't see Umbreon or Espeon being too powerful for UU. If they are too powerful and were moved up to OU it doesn't matter that they would get crushed. We aren't trying to make a tier so that every single Pokemon can excel. He are just trying to limit over all brokeness.

My take on this issue is that if many Pokemon cannot thrive in the UU environment because of Umbeon, Espeon, etc. we should make another metagame below that of UU.
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Bonkenhi
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So an NU tier?

Might be a good way to get several NFE's involved.
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TheOedipusRex
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While I am not a fan of what the tiers are currently being called, yes a NU Tier with a borderline between it and UU. This creates the list confusion and conflict in the Uber, OU, BL, and top of the UU which are already very well set up.
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Bonkenhi
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POINT SYSTEM <3 I have the lists from PP1. =D

...might take a bit of work but if you can find a fair value for each Pokemon that would make competitive battling here win so much more <3

SHEED'S LIST
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purapura
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Bonkenhi
Jun 25 2009, 04:33 PM
POINT SYSTEM <3 I have the lists from PP1. =D

...might take a bit of work but if you can find a fair value for each Pokemon that would make competitive battling here win so much more <3

SHEED'S LIST
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ADRIAN'S LIST:
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JAVIER'S LIST:
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KEVIN'S LIST:
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oh... oh god..
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Sheed
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No points lists. They just don't work. xD
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Xepher
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Yeah. Those fail xD
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Bonkenhi
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When I looked through the archives... it just really looked like a big waste of time. =P

I was kinda hoping to have the chance to try it out at least. It's that crap? D=
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Xepher
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Hey, George. You have access to PP1?
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Bonkenhi
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That's how I got those lists, yes I do. =P
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Overthrown
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Now... wait? BL can be used in both OU and UU? If that's correct, let's call them UU. Keeps us from having a large Tier list, and doesn't clutter up the OU list. Unless you really want the BL tier to exist, this is just my idea. I honestly don't mind either way, but I thought I'd throw my bits in to help the cause.
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Elevator Music
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BL can be used in OU but not UU.
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Overthrown
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Then I misunderstood what I was reading... then yea, keep it I guess. It can be used int he OU tier anyway. Up to the person using them.
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