Deoxys-S

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

I feel that Deoxys-S should be in the Uber Tier. It's stats and and move set make it arguably the best lead in the entire game. Lets take a look at an example:

Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Attack)
EVs: 252 Attack / 6 Defense / 252 Speed
~ Taunt
~ Stealth Rocks
~ Spikes
~ Extreme Speed

I cannot think of one OU lead that could stand against this uber pokemon. It has an unmatched 504 speed which will, with the exception of a priority move, allow it to move first to Taunt and set up both of it's entry hazards. If the opposing lead does have a priority attack, Deoxy-S has access to Extreme Speed, another priority move. Focus Sash gives it even more protection. This thing is a monster and should stay in Ubers because no OU has a shot at countering it.

Garchomp

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Garchomp should also be in Ubers. It is an easy to set up, unstoppable offensive force. It greatly out classes many other OU Pokemon with similar uses (Flygon, Dragonite, Salamence, etc.) thus centralizing the metagame. Lets take a look at an example:

Garchomp @ Life Orb / Yache Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Nature: Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Defense)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~ Swords Dance
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge

This Garchomp is for setting up and sweeping. I believe that this set, with the Life Orb and one Swords Dance, can, at the most, 2HKO all Pokemon in the current Smogon OU Tier when using Outrage. This means even Steel types that will resist Outrage are at the most 2HKOed. Other Pokemon who do not resist it should be 1HKOed. Also considering it's good typing and diverse move set it can come in on many Pokemon and have an attack ready to use against them. This will force a switch, giving Garchomp the time it needs to set up without any threat. He does have a 4xs weakness to Ice, but that is his only fault I see. This fault is minor because very few Pokemon in OU have Ice attacks and even fewer of these Pokemon are run. Furthermore in the time that it takes for these Pokemon to switch in Garchomp can and will set up with Swords Dance if he has not already. Lastly and Ice attack against him will be a lot less powerful because of a Yache Berry. In practice Garchomp has no reliable counters. He should be in Ubers.

For the record, this is another Garchomp set that is a revenge killer. This shows some more of Garchomp's versatility:

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
Nature: Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Attack)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Attack / 252 Speed
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Fire Fang

This is similar to the previous set but is a revenge killer. STAB Outrage is still very powerful without the Life Orb and Choice Scarf boosts Garchomp's speed even higher than it normally is with the max speed EVs and + speed nature. Earthquake is another STAB move and it along with Stone Edge give great type coverage. Fire Fang further increases this coverage against grass types and ice types that may switch in against it.

I'll say it again, Garchomp centralizes the metagame because he is much too powerful for OU.

Latios

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Again, Latios should remain in Ubers. He is a great special sweeper and special wall. The following set show this:

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid (+ Speed, - Attack)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Special Attack / 252 Speed
~ Calm Mind
~ Grass Knot / Thunder / Surf / Psychic / etc.
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Recover

This thing is a monster. First of all Soul Dew gives him 150% of what his normal special attack would be without it. Considering his base stat for it is 130, his special attack would be sky high. Couple this with 252 Special Attack EVs he would be one of, if not the, best special attacker in the game. His speed is also very high with a naturally high base stat and Timid nature and max speed EVs. Levitate also protects him from ground attacks giving him a good chance to switch. He can also switch into special type attacks with ease. Calm Mind easily lets him set up and protects him more from special attacks. Recover gives him a great HP restoring system. Dragon Pulse is a great STAB attack and for the last slot Latios has a multitude of options to choose from that gives great type diversity options. This is a Suicune + Gyarados on steriods. I can go on, but this is pretty obvious that Latios is a monster. He should be in ubers.

Manaphy

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

I have not had very much experience with Manaphy but looking at this move set it is too powerful for OU:

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Nature: Timid (+ Speed, - Attack)
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Special Attack / 176 Speed
~ Tail Glow
~ Rest
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam / Sleep Talk

The idea behind this set is very simple. Tail glow to set up and then sweep. Tail Glow is like a Swords Dance but with special attack being boosted. Surf is a great STAB move that do a lot of damage especially with this EV set. Finally it can rest off any damage it takes and use Sleep Talk to continue to attack and set up. On the other hand Sleep Talk can be replaced with Ice Beam for better type coverage. Either way Manaphy is a very good Pokemon. It replaces any need for other OU Pokemon like Suicune and Gyarados, and this centralizes the metagame.

Mew

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Mew is a Pokemon that is impossible to counter. The definition of a counter is a Pokemon that can safely switch into the Pokemon it is countering and then defeat it. The problem with this is that Mew, since it can learn every move in the game, is impossible to counter. Futhermore because of it's versatile stats and the EV system it can be used for many different roles, roles that the opponent cannot predict. For example, a Mew move sets can look like these

Baton Pass

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Nature: Timid (+ Speed, - Attack)
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Special Defense / 220 Speed
~ Nasty Plot / Swords Dance / Rock Polish / etc.
~ Hypnosis / Substitute / Protect / etc.
~ Taunt / Ingrain / Mean Look / etc.
~ Baton Pass

Special Sweeper

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Nature: Timid (+ Speed, - Attack)
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Special Attack / 220 Speed
~ Nasty Plot
~ Baton Pass
~ Ice Beam / Dark Pulse / etc.
~ Grass Knot / Thunder / Aura Sphere / etc.

Physical Sweeper

 

Spoiler: click to toggle

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Nature: Jolly (+ Speed, - Special Attack)
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Attack / 220 Speed
~ Swords Dance
~ Baton Pass
~ Ice Punch / Shadow Claw / etc.
~ Earthquake / Thunder Punch / Brick Break / etc.

The examples go on and on, making him impossible to counter. Because of this, Mew should be Uber Tier.

purapura

 

And remember, it's not about if the pokemon isn't good in its tier, it's if it overpowers its current.

purapura

Jun 22 2009, 05:16 PM

And stop it with the fucking "lollegendary'sbannedcauselolthey'rebettarlollllll" that's stupid. Legendary means nothing except they're harder to get.

Sheed

Jun 22 2009, 09:14 PM

purapura

Jun 22 2009, 05:16 PM

And stop it with the fucking "lollegendary'sbannedcauselolthey'rebettarlollllll" that's stupid. Legendary means nothing except they're harder to get.

Who said anything about that? o.0

So we've got posts from most of the Pokemon minds on the forum, and what I'm reading is this (thus far):
Smogon's Uber list is fine, with the exception of perhaps Wynaut. There's also a few that don't have many opinions at the moment.

I think the best move at this point is, with the exception of Wynaut, keep the Uber tier as Smogon's for the time being. We'll discuss Wynaut in-depth a bit, then make a decision. In the future, we can test specific Pokemon to see if they should move up/down or whatnot.

Does anybody have a problem with that idea?

Sheed

Jun 22 2009, 09:35 PM

Well, TPA is not as well known as you're fond of thinking. ; P

Link pl0x.

TheOedipusRex

Jun 22 2009, 09:54 PM

That's WAYYY too many people in Boardlerline.

Edit: I would consider Wynaut going down to OU. None of the others though, and none going up to ubers.

TheOedipusRex

Jun 22 2009, 10:09 PM

I don't believe it is a well made list. I have not had the time to take a good look at the exact placement of everyone, but Boardline having that many Pokemon defeats the purpose of it being there. The Tiering system was explain to me like this

At first any Pokemon could be used in any battle. everyone basically ran around with a team of 6 mewtwo. Because some were soo over powered they created a ban list for the battles. This became Ubers and Everything Else (EE). Then people moved onto new Pokemon and some were still way too powerful than everyone else. Because of this they divided EE into the Pokemon that were Oversued (OU) because they were very powerful, yet not as powerful as Ubers, and Pokemon that were Underused (UU) because they were not as powerful. Even so, some Pokemon in UU were still too powerful for UU but not powerful enough for OU. This created a boarderline between the two tiers to create a distinction between the two, not a create a whole other metagame.

Ubers- Pokemon too powerful for OU and UU
Overused- Pokemon too powerful for UU but not powerful enough for Ubers
Boardline- Pokemon not powerful enough for OU but too powerful for UU
Underused- Pokemon that are not powerful enough for OU or Boardline


To put it another way, Boarderline and Ubers are like ban lists for UU and OU. The problem with the above tier list is that it has made Boardline into it's own metagame. This stops any real distinction between the tiers.

Boarderline

 

87 Pokemon are in Boarderline

Spoiler: click to toggle

1) Abomasnow
2) Absol
3) Aerodactyl
4) Alakazam
5) Arcanine
6) Armaldo
7) Articuno
8) Blaziken
9) Chansey
10) Charizard
11) Claydol
12) Cloyster
13) Cradily
14) Crobat
15) Dodrio
16) Drapion
17) Empoleon
18) Entei
19) Espeon
20) Exeggutor
21) Feraligatr
22) Floatzel
23) Flygon
24) Froslass
25) Gardevoir
26) Glaceon
27) Hariyama
28) Hitmontop
29) Honchkrow
30) Houndoom
31) Jolteon
32) Jumpluff
33) Jynx
34) Kangaskhan
35) Lapras
36) Leafeon
37) Lickilicky
39) Linoone
39) Ludicolo
40) Luxray
41) Magmortar
42) Marowak
43) Medicham
44) Mesprit
45) Miltank
46) Milotic
47) Mismagius
48) Moltres
49) Nidoking
50) Ninetales
51) Ninjask
53) Pikachu (with Light Ball)
54) Pinsir
55) Poliwrath
56) Porygon2
57) Probopass
58) Raichu
59) Raikou
60) Rampardos
61) Regice
62) Regigigas
63) Regirock
64) Registeel
65) Relicanth
66) Roserade
67) Rhyperior
68) Sceptile
69) Sharpedo
70) Shaymin
71) Slowking
72) Smeargle
73) Starraptor
74) Steelix
75) Tauros
76) Tentacruel
77) Torterra
78) Toxicroak
79) Typhlosion
80) Umbreon
81) Ursaring
82) Uxie
83) Vaporeon
84) Venusaur
85) Walrein
86) Weezing
87) Wynaut

TheOedipusRex

Jun 22 2009, 10:29 PM

In this "ban list" of Boarderline there are 87 Pokemon! 87! I just counted them myself.

Here is the list

Boarderline

 

87 Pokemon are in Boarderline

Spoiler: click to toggle

1) Abomasnow
2) Absol
3) Aerodactyl
4) Alakazam
5) Arcanine
6) Armaldo
7) Articuno
8) Blaziken
9) Chansey
10) Charizard
11) Claydol
12) Cloyster
13) Cradily
14) Crobat
15) Dodrio
16) Drapion
17) Empoleon
18) Entei
19) Espeon
20) Exeggutor
21) Feraligatr
22) Floatzel
23) Flygon
24) Froslass
25) Gardevoir
26) Glaceon
27) Hariyama
28) Hitmontop
29) Honchkrow
30) Houndoom
31) Jolteon
32) Jumpluff
33) Jynx
34) Kangaskhan
35) Lapras
36) Leafeon
37) Lickilicky
39) Linoone
39) Ludicolo
40) Luxray
41) Magmortar
42) Marowak
43) Medicham
44) Mesprit
45) Miltank
46) Milotic
47) Mismagius
48) Moltres
49) Nidoking
50) Ninetales
51) Ninjask
53) Pikachu (with Light Ball)
54) Pinsir
55) Poliwrath
56) Porygon2
57) Probopass
58) Raichu
59) Raikou
60) Rampardos
61) Regice
62) Regigigas
63) Regirock
64) Registeel
65) Relicanth
66) Roserade
67) Rhyperior
68) Sceptile
69) Sharpedo
70) Shaymin
71) Slowking
72) Smeargle
73) Starraptor
74) Steelix
75) Tauros
76) Tentacruel
77) Torterra
78) Toxicroak
79) Typhlosion
80) Umbreon
81) Ursaring
82) Uxie
83) Vaporeon
84) Venusaur
85) Walrein
86) Weezing
87) Wynaut

I have yet to count how many are in OU and UU, but 87 is a monstrous number for a ban list. In fact this isn't a ban list, it is it's own metagame. Smogon's OU and UU Tiers (2 two different metagames) both have about 50 Pokemon in them a piece. I think their boarderline (their ban list) has all of four or five. Thats 1/18 of the size of this proposed "ban list". To put it another way this "ban list" is 87 Pokemon out of 493 total Pokemon (never minding the Uber ban list). That means that at least about 17.6% of all Pokemon are on a ban list, compared to about about 0.01014% on smogons list.


Edit:

And yes we should really be talking about Ubers here. I don't mind proposing changes to Smogons list if they are reasonable and we can go at them one by one. The problem is that this new list is something I've never seen before and I'm sure many others have never seen before. I know nothing about this list like who made it, how long has it been used, how many people use it, etc. On the other hand smogon's basic list is accepted just about everywhere. We should use that as a base for changing anything.