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Trial Procedures
Topic Started: Nov 8 2012, 08:20 PM (583 Views)
Czernobog
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Post by: Solomon
Date: XXXX-XX-XX

Earlier today, Detectives Sanda, Kokumura, and I were successful in capturing Kyomu Monto, the individual supposedly responsible for the Ruwashi Park Incident of several weeks ago. She was harmed in the course of being apprehended, but the wounds were non-fatal and have since been healed.

We currently have no process for trying individuals accused of actions against our community and the city around us. This needs to be resolved. We can neither allow these affronts to go un-addressed, nor can we allow ourselves to be beheld to mob justice and vigilanteism.

I would like to invite feedback from the community, and request it in particular from certain individuals who seem to me to be appropriate to involve in the discussion.

I would appreciate advice from the following people:

  • Kouno Takashi
  • Albert Raleigh
  • Kawabata Murasaki
  • Kameko Kira
  • Yatsu Kumori
  • Susaki Kaede
  • Treo Ashdown
  • Okawa Kaji


However, this is an issue that affects the whole community. As such, I would appreciate it if everyone would chime in with ideas of how to handle the issue. It will take us some time to reach town, but we are currently heading for the Training Center, which seems to be the most appropriate venue.
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Dante
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Post By: EnterTheDragon
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 19:05

This isn't my official stance on the matter, but I will clear the air with this. There is no need to demand justice. A vicious circle will solve nothing. Blood does not wash away blood. Justice will be served, but no-one is to act as a vigilante.

I merely wished to open with that. Solomon-san, I know you will make sure the right thing happens.


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Post By: MissMercurial
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 20:56

I was not around for the tragedy, but I heard about it on the net. Such a twisted crime, left to hang on the meathook. Left to rot for another's folly. Kyomu Monto will be judged to the full extent of the law. Of course, we cannot jail our own kind, so perhaps we need to think logically. There must be a way.
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UserShadow7989
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Post By: HiddenDragon777
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 22:12

Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to think this over a bit before responding. Whatever we do here will set a precedent for any future cases, so taking the right approach is pivotal (the severity of the crime only reinforcing that).

My first reaction and something that will probably get a number of angry comments: no death penalty.

The judicial system used by our society and most of the more civilized societies have been in place, refined, built upon, and managed for hundreds of years by people who have studied and trained much of their life specifically for that purpose. And they still fuck up from time to time. There are people on death row in North America who are proved innocent and released from it every day, some sadly posthumously. There have been events like this in Japan, too.

We, on the other hand, have little to no training (excepting a few), and are even worse equipped than most normal people our age by virtue of living in one of the least sane places on the planet and have a condition that literally amounts to voices in our heads trying to make us do things we know better than to do. We are few, we are new and something that history has not seen if not ever, then not in a long time. We are, to be blunt, not trustworthy enough to have the kind of power that comes with being judge, jury, and executioner.

Further, as the accused has in fact proven herself, it is very easy to just point the finger at someone. Though our investigation was thorough and we retained healthy skepticism and avoided anything severe as a result of that accusation, it does prove that people will attempt to abuse any system we make and there will be times when we slip up. That's why any punishment that is so final and permanent should be avoided unless there are no alternatives.

Not to mention there would be a great deal of hypocrisy in that when we have forgiven several members of our community for very heinous (though not matching the scale of what she is accused of) crimes. These people have, despite this, become fully functioning members of society or made great strides to do so. By saying there is in fact a time we can execute someone for a crime, the question becomes 'when?'. The aforementioned people are evidence that there is a turning point in many criminals' lives where they can change and even save lives, and such a law could very well end the life of someone who would have someday saved the life of another.

That also brings up the question of the mental sanity of whatever people we take to trial- a person who is not or was not sane enough to be considered responsible for his or her actions, and other mitigating effects such as being a minor or not, under coercion... though that's getting off topic.


That said, we have a major issue. Even weak persona users would be difficult to contain, especially because we still don't know every ability or person who has them in specific, and people who can ascertain these abilities don't grow on trees and will not be available every waking moment. We can't magic up a state of the art prison- though we have wealthy members and great numbers, such a building popping up over night would draw attention and unwanted questions.

Turning a persona user over to the police for this would only further confirm our existence, and that person would have no greater difficulty escaping prison under them as under us, assuming some vigilante or mob didn't find them and take their revenge. So as much as I want to say 'leave this to the proper authorities', they lack the equipment and information they need for this at this time.

Keeping an eye on the person could be done- having someone escort them around- but it's not feasible for every single criminal we have, and most of us have jobs, schools, and other facets of life we need to attend to that would prevent us from monitoring this person. Not to mention 'we're watching you' isn't really much of a punishment on its own, and there must be some sort of punishment for this.

So... that's the first issue. We can't (or rather, shouldn't) kill the responsible party. We can't monitor or imprison them. We can't (or, again, shouldn't) let them go. We can't avoid the subject altogether or give them a slap on the wrist if they promise to be a good little kid. There's not much options here. It's late and I'm not feeling too hot, so I'll try and sleep on it; see if I can't give us some ideas of what we CAN do.


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Post By: OldWise1
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 22:19

Well, here I had this nice long post written up, and then Kameko-chan had to go and say it for me.

Though I do have some ideas on how to deal with the issue. She was correct in that we can't kill them or put them under house arrest and call it a day, but there are things we can do. It wouldn't be too difficult to, be it through some of our member's connections to the police, our more monetarily gifted members, or simply the ease of finding such things in the back alleys of Nagashima, get hold of a house arrest anklet or the like and keep constant track of a person.

With the proper set up, we could ensure that the person breaking or otherwise removing the anklet would set off an alarm, and it would increase the ease of keeping track of the person to the point it wouldn't bog down a volunteer's day to day life.

As for proper punishment, I'm stumped myself at the moment, but I have an idea. One of our most pressing concerns has been the ruins. Namely, our difficulty in rescuing new users who have been trapped there, or tracking down those who have entered there in a fit of insanity. This is only something off the top of my head- I don't have much time left right now before an important appointment to hammer out the details- but perhaps those who have been convicted of a major crime must assist in rescue missions?

The ruins are extremely dangerous and entering them is risking your life, though sadly there are a few who choose to ignore that fact. The threat of being forced to face this danger would be a suitable deterrent from committing these types of crimes, while the extra muscle can mean the difference between a person being saved from the ruins or dying in them, making the perpetrators repay their debts to society.

I need to hurry along now, but when I return, I'll see if I can't offer any better advice. Maybe we should look into some books on court procedure or the history of legal systems? Just a thought- I'm certain the library has something on the subject.
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Icarael
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Post By: DivineSword
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 22:33

@HiddenDragon777: I understand your reasoning, but I have to nitpick on something.

You say that there is a turning point where a criminal can change. The thing is, even if a criminal has reformed, he's still a criminal and still has to be punished. A good act doesn't cancel out the bad. Justice must still be done.

@OldWise1: You mean, put them all in one unit and have them go into the most dangerous areas of the ruins with no hope of return, sort of like a Banzai charge?

That sounds like a good idea, but what if they decide to turn on us in the middle of, say, a rescue mission? And what do we do with them when they're not in the Ruins?
Edited by Icarael, Nov 10 2012, 01:13 AM.
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Supnitle
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Post By: WildChalice
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 1:04

@DivineSword: You. Stop talking.

A good act doesn't cancel out the bad? Then what, exactly, are we all supposed to do? We just live with our sins forever, with no chance of reform? Even if we learn from our mistakes and try to change ourselves, we are still atrocious monsters who deserve to die, despite any good we have done? What do we do with these people, then? How, exactly, do you suggest we "punish" them? We clearly can't send them to regular jail. Maybe we should execute them under some false sense of justice that, from the posts you've made on this forum, you seem to be obsessed with? By your own logic, that would be a bad act that apparently wouldn't be cancelled out by any possible intrinsic goodness within, so the executioner would deserve to die, too. Or would you prefer that we torture them, instead?

OldWise1 clearly did not suggest sending them out on so-called "Banzai Missions" to get themselves killed, and you are a sick person for suggesting such. The point would be to get them to help others and attempt to reform them at the same time.

I'm aware that this wouldn't exactly be a perfect solution, but the fact is, we have no perfect solution. But that doesn't mean one solution is as good as the other: death is completely out of the question. It would be hypocritical, idiotic, and if anyone dares to bring it up again, I will personally guard the "criminal" in question and thwart any attempts at their life.

DivineSword, I believe your opinion wasn't in the list of those called for in the initial post for a reason. From what I have seen on the forum, you are irrational, unforgiving, and generally someone who should not be put in charge of deciding someone's fate.

And Kyomu Monto is a girl. You twit.

That aside, I obviously don't believe she should be killed, but the question of what to do with Ms. Monto otherwise is a difficult one. At the very least, we should attempt to restrain her in some way right now. Obviously, physical restraints would be necessary, but in terms of personas, does anyone have the ability to use silence spells? It would be a bit crude, but keeping her under a constant silence spell would solve the problem of her breaking out using magic, at least temporarily. It would be rather strenuous for the person casting the silence spells, however.

For the question of what to do afterwards, it is one in the morning and i will answe rthat later
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Yes
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Post By: MKA
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 12:02

Imagine my surprise when I find this discussion during a lunch break. I'd like to steer us away from the whole argument about justice because it looks like it would get tiresome very quickly and just offer my resources for containment; I can use Silence spells. The problem with confinement, Silence spells or no, is that Monto-san has prosthetics that are quite strong. I have partial blueprints of them from the raid, but it will be hard to weaken them unless my engineers have either enough time to analyze them fully or the full blueprints. The problem with the first is that Monto-san would likely kill or otherwise incapacitate my engineers before they could go to work. The problem with the latter is that the blueprints lie with Fyodor Corp.

Sedation is a short-term solution that we could use, but I'm personally against it and it is an expensive road to go down.
Edited by Yes, Nov 16 2012, 07:45 PM.
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Czernobog
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Post by: Solomon
Date: XXXX-XX-XX

Stopped to gas up. Monto-san's legs were damaged in the fight: chances are that they will need repairs, if we are leaning more towards containment and rehabilitation or renumeration.

While I do not wish to skew the discussion -- I have my own preferences on the matter, but my roll is as enforcer, not policy-maker -- I am glad that we have options other than execution. While I would carry out the will of the community, the purpose of law is to allow the body politic to heal, and capital punishment is hardly ever a suitable tonic. Exploitation never is.

Who is going to be involved in the trial, and in what capacity?


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Post by: MisterNg
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 12:25

I respectfully disagree. The purpose of law is to provide a litmus test for the use of force.

In this case, how can we be sure that any "healing" is possible? If the girl is contained, then there is the chance that she could escape and wreak havoc. I would like to remind everyone that the problem here is that she has displayed a capability for causing massive amounts of destruction, as well as a willingness to work with people clearly opposed to our continued health, safety, and freedom.

Containment may be an acceptable policy with someone of lesser power, but when someone is as powerful and unstable as this girl, can we necessarily take any option off the table as a matter of policy?


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Post by: Krishna
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 12:36

I realize I wasn't invited into this discussion, but I'd like to vote for whatever we're calling the "not murder" options. Put me in the "not murder" column, please, especially now that we have some options for containment.

@DivineSword: Forgive me for saying this, but there are several problems with your philosophy: not just in the general area of ethics, but also in ontology and epistemology. Have you tried looking at criminal or immoral actions as things that people sometimes do, instead of as traits of some class of person called a 'criminal'?

Actually, best to move that discussion out of this thread, I don't want want to gum it up any more than I already have.
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Dante
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Post By: MissMercurial
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 12:34

My company specializes in cybernetic bodyparts so if you would allow me to take a look at the subject, I could see if I can put her right. I will gladly lend my help but I must remind you that I cannot stand by if execution is the answer. I will do everything in my power to prevent that.


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Post By: EnterTheDragon
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 15:04

I'll be involved with the trial. I want to make sure the correct justice is given. It is my duty.
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Post By: JesteringPalette
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 13:55

Holy fucking shit, you guys. I leave for a day and all this shit happens.

DivineSword, MisterNg, anyone who's even suggesting we kill her or use some kind of corporal punishment, shut the fuck up. We kill her, and we're no better than she is.

I honestly don't have any ideas for long term containment. We're not the government; we just don't have the resources for that. Handing her over to the police means revealing Persona users to them too. We're basically on our own with no support here, and I'm out of ideas.

For the sake of this trial, Kawabata-san's already offered herself for silence spells. As far as dealing with her prosthetics goes, I know a couple people who have mobility inhibiting spells. I can refer them to the trial if need be.


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Post By: MythosObserver
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 14:32

I am capable of using Silence skills. However, they also remove the ability of the affected to speak, meaning they would be unable to defend themselves in court. Kawabata-san's idea for removing Persona ability is better.

As far as where I stand on the debate, I believe that Monto-san can be rehabilitated, so long as she is willing. But I think I'll remain on the sidelines for this. I rather dislike how everyone continues to speak of her like she's some kind of wild animal.
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Yes
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Post By: Teatime
Date: XXXX-XX-XX at 15:12

I think that we should be more focused on figuring out what Monto-san has been thinking all this time. She might have lost control in the park, but what did she want to accomplish after the fact? Was her disappearance just an attempt to get as far away as possible, or was there something that she wanted to get done? We can't really figure out how much/how little rehabilitation Monto-san needs if we don't know at least that much, I think.
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