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Fapple's Big Update; [Flagged][Flagged]
Topic Started: Aug 29 2016, 11:36 PM (982 Views)
Bright
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1) You're right on this, so that's sorted. Iron strength natural weapon, but not tiered protection.

2) Uh, do we know that? Having looked through every canon zoan user the only ones that even come close to chopper's monster point are X Drake and Jack, and their fruits are of naturally large creatures. Still doesn't come anywhere near the 60 ft insanity you're trying to push. Current consensus is that, seeing as how even post-time skip chopper needs a rumble ball to assume monster point, forms that rival giants are currently a no-go.

3) I can't say I do believe you, nor do the other mods I've asked believe you. The consensus was that the idea of sense-based, obs-style techs without super sense was a no go. Please do provide sources, if you're adamant, and we can give a new ruling on it. Which I suspect will still be no.

4) I do not believe AoE is defined as utterly filling an area, such as you'd expect with an explosion, anywhere on the site. My interpretation of AoE, and the interpretation of AoE I've seen from most other mods, is that it covers an area, rather than totally filling it. AoE is not limited to explosives. Anything that covers an area larger than a relatively thin straight line, and in doing so is able to hit multiple opponents, is counted as AoE. If you can provide decent, non-stupid sources that your definition is correct and that mine "has never been the case in the history of this sight." then sure, I'll concede

For gatling, where does it say it can target multiple opponents? Gatling's definition is that it is multiple attacks, not that it can cover several opponents. Obviously a little bit of leeway for RP purposes should be allowed here; if two people are standing right next to each other, to the point that they could in physical contact, and you fire a shotgun gatling thing at them, then sure, totally cool that you hit both. It isn't cool if three dudes are charging at you several meters apart and you take them all down with a single blast. That is literally the point of AoE. If gatling could inherently hit multiple opponents then AoE would not have any point. At virtually every rank and range it would be more cost efficient to simply tack gatling onto range and forgo proper AoE. I would be incredibly surprised if this was the intention when designing these effects.

5) I don't know who Sunny is or what he does, I don't read Toriko. Regardless, super thin spider leg things that can still support large amounts of weight and propel you super high in the air opens up uncomfortable levels of precedent. If they're that thin but that strong, the image of string fruit bullshit pops into mind. I'm not asking for you to make tree trunks, just that the "legs" are clearly visible and clearly made of enough material to actually support something in the air.

6) There isn't anything wrong with firing them from a gun, its that you're piggybacking other techs or worse yet, wanting to downright freeform using these devices at a range you haven't paid for. An inventor still has to make a tech that involves them firing their munitions at range. A weathermancer still has to pay for range costs whether they fire their effects from a gun or twirl a magic staff about. if you want to freeform toss the things, by all means do so, but if you're using them beyond the short aoe they're described at, without paying associated range costs, then any pvp opponent, narrator, or grader, has every right to call bullshit.
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geomease
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1) Cool

2) Alright so as it turns out you were right and I was way off, I thought choppers monster point was WAY larger than it actually was, according to some measurements I took it tends to max out at around 20 - 24 feet upright.

I've changed out the measurements on those forms, starting with the rank 16 at 16 feet --> Rank 30@ 20 feet --> Rank 40@ 22 feet --> Rank 44 @ 24 feet. Do these measurements seem better?

3) Official update detailing exactly what i claimed. its in the official rules and not once in any future update has this ruling been overturned. As far as the site goes, this is still the rules

4) If thats the case, then does AoE negate range? In addition to costing twice as much as range costs, an AoE of a short rare would naturally encompas a short range for a techniques. Does this mean that if I pay for AoE, then I don;t need to pay for range as well since its already included in the description of AoE? If thats th case then why wouldn;t the Marksman Primary effects cover AoE as well since your just using it to attack multiple targets at range? How should these situations be handled. I'll make appropriate edits once I an get an answer as based on what i get, it would drastically alter how my techniques function, as well as all their branches. Can I reword them to say 'fires a spread of bullets at the target that makes it harder to dodge' without changing the ranks?

5) done

6) An invention technique applies to the creation of the invention itself. It pertains and covers exclusively what the creation does. its why creation techniques are considered their own categorey of techniques, they are seperate from a martial technique, which is what things like throwing and firing range applies to. The range on a martial technique iplies not how far the attack travels, but how far its full force travels. Anyone can throw a football in a parabolic arc a good distance, far farther than short range in fact. But you throw a football with enough force that it can knock someone back or hit them like a full force punch, that's what the range effects on martial techniques do. you're not paying for the range an attack travels, your paying for the range that the full force and effects the attack can maintain before it becomes a freeform. If I freeform aim a gun and fire it into the sky it will go farther than melee range even without a technique, but mechanically it will be as strong as a freeform punch.

If I have, say for example, a technique where I create a grenade, I CANNOT add throwing range onto that technique, because then it falls into the category of combo techniques, which are forbidden according to the rules. A grenade, or an invention, is just that. Its effects pertain EXCLUSIVELY to what it does, and what it does alone. Whether I drop the grenade or invention, or chuck it like a football, or fire it from a gun, has absolutely no bearing on the act of creating it. Creation techniques are how its built, how its constructed, and what its intended to do when activate.
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2) I am going to give a veeery tentative yes to those sizes, for now. I'm not going to fully commit to them either, however, or argue with another mod that comes in here and says no. I'll ask around a bit more, but for now at least consider it fine.

3) Credit where its due, that's a decent find I overlooked and I can see why you'd have reason to believe. However, as you probably saw previously, although zoans are able to make techs based on their natural abilities and sense, obs-style detection techniques are still gated behind Super Sense trait.

4) AoE does indeed negate range so far as I'm concerned. The only times you'd need to stack range and AoE is in the case of "delivered" aoe in the form of explosions, shrapnel, etc. Take lasers for example; you fire a beam over X range that then explodes in Y aoe at the point of impact. This requires both range and AoE. A grenade fired over a long distance before exploding would also require this stacking. On the other hand, if you have a shotgun and just want to blast some goons in front of you, you only need short AoE because the short range is already covered by the aoe.

I don't quite understand what you mean with marksman. Having it reduce the costs of both range and AoE would be insanely OP.

6) This is a largely outdated way of thinking that really doesn't apply under the current technique system. Creating/using inventor gadgets and associated techniques are one and the same. I would consider looking at Jolon, Clara, and Jessie's apps for reference on this sort of thing. They've also got the whole AoE thing down perfectly too.
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2) noted

3) I had been told in the past that the only real way to represent enhanced senses was by making the techniques observation like. That without the super sense trait you were hardcapped at rank 14, and that your enhanced sense traits could only cover the 'sense whats around you' type techs and couldn't do the whole 'I can sense what you're about to do'. If not like this, how would you be able to represent an animals enhanced senses with a technique that isn;t represented similarly to how observation works. Also keep in mind that observation is still even with the Super Sense trait objectively better since it gives buffs as well.

4) that whole idea then makes marksmen even more obsolete. I think we can all agree that AoE is objectively a better effect than range, since it does everything the former does and more, which is why its cost is twice as much. This means that now inventor primaries can do the job and skills of marksmen primaries better than them. Marksmen already fall behind Martial Artist Primaries and Weapon Specialist primaries due to those two granting access to high end traits as proffessional traits while Marksmen gets pretty much squat in terms of primary trait benefits.

The benefit of being a primary marksman is suppose to be how you can hit targets accurately at range better than anyone else. But what you're describing now says that if they want to hit more than one person at a time, they're going to be just as bad at ranged attacks as everyone else. Meanwhile Joe inventor guy can now target everyone in a medium range area with his Medium AoE rank 8 machine shooter while the actual marksman can't do that until rank 28 and investing twice as much effort into it. Why would anyone bother taking Marksmen as a primary now that inventor can do the job better and grant you a bunch of extra general traits as professional ones as well? it would be one thing if marksmen primaries could gain the benefits of some of the other martial primary traits, but thtas not the case. With what you're describing, the Marksmen come up short in every category i can think of.

The other issue is how anti common sense it is. If I have say a machine gun, the repeating fire is best represented as the gattling effect yes? So is what your saying that i can;t move the direction the barrel is facing while firing? That the act of switching targets or moving the barrel becomes impossible once I pull the trigger because rapid fire attacks can ONLY be aimed at a single target and never move from it?

On top of that this all comes to light after the fact, after I had long since been told it works this way instead of that Clearly this character is built around using shot guns fairly heavily in its technique investment, so now instead of being able to take advantage of that like i had been told from day one, now I'm having the rug pulled outf rom under me with no way to fix it since the latest patch barred actual patch scoops. it just feels cheap.

6) Jolon and Clara's example doesn't provide a range effect, just the AoE and the general effects of the technique used. This is exactly what i have been doing with my techniques, the tech involves the creation and lists the effects of invention once it is activated. Whether I hurl it by hand, deliver it in combination with one of my Marksmen techniques (In which I'm paying AE to both fire my rifle and or any associated marksmen techniques, as well as to activate the effect) or decided to drop or plant them on the ground or a wall by hand, I'm still paying for exactly what it says on the tin. Those two examples you provide do exactly what my techs do in terms of description and application.

Jesse's example you provided was using Range + AoE effects to create not bombs or grenades, but missiles. It was clearly defining them as a creation that automatically travels a distance before detonating, something akin to a laser rather than a grenade. A fact which you established last post as having a clear cut difference.

so either I'm throwing/shooting them freeform in which they have they have the default AoE range they are listed at as they should, or I'm firing them with a full blown marksmen technique in which i AM paying for the range to have the effect delivered at the end point. Either way you look at it my invention techniques are already doing exactly what your asking/expecting from them.
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3) Well, regardless of what you heard in the past, you heard it from the current big blue man himself that obs detection techs are hard gated behind Super Sense. I don't have many suggestions off the top of my head, but using it to tell some perfumes apart maybe? Go write some murder mysteries or something. Keep in mind that it isn't natural zoan senses but natural zoan abilities up to r14. I imagine that was actually the main focus.

4) If those are the only categories you can think of, then I seriously feel you ought broaden your horizons a little. This is an extremely meta-gamey and, dare I say, cancerous stream of logic that literally only takes into account how effective one is at swinging one's dick around in hardcore pvp scenarios. Maybe people might choose to take marksman over inventor because that's what they want to play? Because it fits the character better? Because they aren't all too bothered about destroying everything in sight? AoE is not inherently better than range, especially for a softstat, "pve" board. You can harm your own character since they will inherently be close to the danger zone. You can harm allies. You could easily cause a building to collapse onto your own head or destroy something you were meant to protect. etc etc

As for the "common sense" question, you can't move the direction the barrel is facing, spray a large area with bullets and still have all the extra non-freeform power of a tech without AoE. Obviously if you have a gatling gun thing and you freeform mow down a crowd of mooks in one go, I seriously doubt anyone is going to take issue with that. Thatwould be ridiculous. As soon as actual techniques get involved however, stuff like that requires AoE.

You can use shotguns. No-one will mind if you freeform shotgun stuff, so long as it isn't too ridiculous or extreme. Earlier example; bunch of mooks standing close to each other? Feel free to blast them. Techniques however, are precise and have stringent rules. As soon as you try to apply a technique to that style of thing, you'll have to either choose between, or otherwise stack, gatling or AoE.

6) How is that doing what I'm asking or expecting? If you throw an invention so it uses the default AoE, you are getting what you paid for; that effect, over that area, at that distance. If you attach them to a rivet or whatever then use a discounted range technique, not only are you using that invention at a range you have not paid for in that technique, you are also effectively applying a profession primary discount to things it was never meant to be applied to, i.e. inventions. It also allows for circumvention of minimum rank rules for varying ranges and AoEs, for example using a rank 14 invention at medium range by piggybacking on the fact that marksmen don't have minimum rank for medium range. It's a fairly blatant loophole that I am not comfortable in allowing.
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geomease
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3) Unless I'm allowed to invoke the grandfathered rule on those scent techs, since they were approved and have been in use fairly extensively for quite awhile, I'll have to delete it. I'd prefer to at least keep the one I've got if possible but if its a hard no retcon, then I'll delete it.

4) My issue is that Marksmen is continually getting the shaft compared to other professions. You say its metagamey and munchkiny but when we have professions that exist to give benefits representing your characters skills and abilities that's kind of to be expected. The fact that a character whose devoted a good portion of their life and training to being a marksmen, can suddenly be made obsolete by another character who can do the same thing they do, with a fraction of the effort, and with a fraction of the practice and training they've put it, is in of itself no longer a mere OOC meta game problem, but an IC issue as well. It sometimes feels like Marksmen is going to be the next profession to go the way of the Navigator, or the Scientist. I know that may sound ridiculous in the context of the world but think about the fact that we no longer have Navigators in a world that's dependent on navigation.

If you've devoted your life to being able to shoot better than most with a gun, it makes no sense that suddenly your skills at shooting with a gun are now no better than some schmuck who can pick up marksmanship as a hobby instead of a profession. Its making the idea of devoting this profession to your primary one, something entirely redundant. So i ask you, why now can't a marksmen whose taken their profession seriously hit multiple targets are better or easier with a gun than someone whose taken up marksmanship as a hobby?

I'm not saying that you should give marksmen primaries the range upgrades on both, but they should at least be able to subtract part of the cost from upgrading from range to AoE. IE having normal AoE benchmarks at base rank, R28, and rank 44 but paying half for them to represent the range benefits of their marksmanship. This way they can still get some representation for their skills at hitting multiple targets, but they don;t get the full benefit either.

6) Because that's EXACTLY what Marksmen/Inventors do in the series. Just about every specialty shot Ussop makes uses his marksmanship to deliver the payload, and don't even tell me range benefits aren't applying to the guy whose snipping explosive snots from 5 kilometers away. You say that it does get around a few rules for dealing with things at range, but why is that an issue? Why would it suddenly be harder for Trick Shot McClain to fire a specialty bullet at someone at a medium range than it would be to fire a regular bullet at range? On top of that your paying the same amount or significantly more in terms of action economy that you would if you were to be combining them into a single technique.

For example: Marksman primary
R4 medium range = 1 AE
R14 thunder bullet = 1AE
Total AE for attack = 2

vs

Marksman primary
R18 Thunder bullet shot at medium range = 2AE
Total AE for attack = 2

in the lowest level example the 2 are exactly the same in terms of what the effects acquire. The total costs only increase by using 2 techniques. If you want to start using long range shots to deliver you'd better be prepared to start spending an extra 2 AE for each pull of the trigger.

There are benefits and drawbacks. You can make those better shots earlier by breaking it down into a payload and delivery technique, but your going to be exerting a lot more energy, especially later on in doing so. You can make them all into one technique and save yourself some finagling and increase the efficency, but you become limited in how versatile your techniques can be. The actual marksmanship stays the same, but you just switch out a normal shot for a custom one. Batman throws a regular batarang the same way he throws one of his explosive ones. The throwing technique is the same, its the payload that's different. When Ussop fires an explosive star from his slingshot the way he pulls back and releases the sling doesn't change from when he fires a regular lead star, the difference is the payload. We've seen that's how it works in canon, why would it different here?
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3) You are free to follow it up, but given how easily retconned it is, I'm going to guess its going to be a hard no.

As for everything else... as much as I'd like to continue shooting things down, this isn't really a place for debate on balance or rules. It's me telling you what is and isn't allowed by the rules as interpreted by me and the other mods I've discussed the issue with. I haven't gotten a hard ruling from shamma on these last two issues, so again feel free to follow those up if you can catch him. If you want to make an open debate on balance or your concerns, you know where to go. I've been wrong before in this thread, I may be wrong again. As it currently stands however, any tech that covers an area and can hit multiple enemies in doing so requires AoE, not just gatling, and you can't piggyback your inventor gadgets onto the range of marksman techs.
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3) for the sake of simplicity I will just delete it then

4) For the sake of moving this along I'll give up on this debate for now. However i do have a few questions and concerns about how these edits will affect my app.

First off if this issue is revisited, and it turns out the ruling was how I originally had it, would I be given free reign to go back and resubmit the techniques as they originally were? or would I be once again stuck with techs moderated with a faulty ruling.

Second is that in order to change all those techniques to fit with the current standards you are telling me I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board on most if not all of my shotgun and gatling techniques, this will include the ones already approved and on the app. Does this mean I have your permission as a mod to edit, delete, and or update all techniques affected by this ruling, both pending in this app and previously approved from past topics? If so I will make all changes regarding these rulings.

6) Because of this sudden change to how inventor techniques work has changed from when they app was approved, does that mean currently and pending inventor techniques, and traits, will be refunded to me. Typically when a patch affects a large portion of a characters techniques, stats, or traits, a refund is available in the form of a patch scoop to fix everything that would negatively affect your character. Since these new rulings do just that, but a patch scoop was denied with the latest patch, how would that be handled in this situation? If i can remove the current technically illegal inventor techniques and associated traits I will, if not then I'm a bit at a loss because i can;t very well rp with incorrect techniques but I can;t change them either. I'll leave the decision on how to proceed up to you.
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If it turns out that I have goofed harder than a winter invasion of russia, then yes, I'd suspect you would be allowed to re-process pending anything that needed changing. That would, however, depend on who you ask because evidently in that situation I wouldn't be a credible source.

For already approved shotgun stuff, you'll probably want to make a process pending for fixing them

I seriously doubt you'd be allowed any form of free patch scoop or refund on traits. As far as I'm seeing, there isn't anything "illegal" about the techs; the basic function of them is fine, its just the adhesive-launching-them-at-extra-range-on-other-techs bit that's the problem. I can't see there being much sympathy for the argument "I have to pay a bit more than I was expecting to use this tech."

I will also try and clarify so that we are on the same page, because there have been a lot of text-walls and I'll admit to skimming over some of it in frustration. I mentioned it earlier; you can fire your inventor gadgets from your gun, if you want, but this has to be included in the tech itself. Every tech is an individual action that must encapsulate everything that action can do.

You could fire direct from the weapon (if it was modula enough and made clear to be able to accept such munitions) or use your adhesive system so long as you actually paid for the range in the tech, then there would be no issue. You could achieve what you want, it would simply cost a bit more tp, power, etc.

You could even potentially use marksman discount in such an instance, but I am less certain on this because it would be less "ranged weapon" and more "ranged utility". I would lean towards no, but if you wish to bring the issue up for debate, this is something I would ask to be clarified.
Edited by Bright, Jan 18 2017, 01:44 PM.
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I'm hesitant to create another topic related to my apps at the same time as another ongoing topic. What happened with the Cream Pye's multiple apps running concurrently, and one delay on one of them holding up every other one by extension soured me on the process. On top of the fact I don;t want to run into the issue where I get accused of putting words into other mods mouths if another mod comes in and tells me flat out I can;t do that.

At Solo's earlier request this topic currently has every single technique, new, old, and updated for the Fapple Jack App. In his previous posts he asked that i rather than breaking up my processes into separate sections combined them all into one master list. All technique updates are accounted for, all banned or illegal techniques have been removed, and all new techniques have been added to this topic already. Once this topic is approved all the techniques listed will be added, readded, or overwritten on the app as I was instructed earlier by solo in this topic when he was tackling it on his own. For that reason this is already the perfect place to handle all changes. What i need now is your permission to make those changes to the techniques that no longer work within the confines of this system. If I have that, I can make all those changes right away. Without that we're stuck in a catch 22 situation where I can't keep the current techniques but I can't change them either since that would require redoing previous techniques. And in truth I can't just remove the old techs and move them to be processed in a separate topic as I was already instructed to turn this topic into a single massive tech update/verifcation thread.
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All changes, edits, updates, and necessary removals have been made as per what we discussed Bright.
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Okay, so as far as my bullshit meter is concerned, I think we're good. I've checked the numbers as well and they seem alright, but I'll ask the next mod to double check. Only issue is the dong field things, which read more like they should be using deflect rather than shockwave (since shockwave is offensive, rather than defensive) but I'm honestly not going to hold up a flag for it, just make sure to change it if defense is the intention.

Topic is flagged for approval.
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my intention was defensive, so I changed it to deflection, are they alright like that?

Hope that doesn;t break flag
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Hi, I'm back.

I'm processing the double check and I noticed that you pretty much broke a decent amount of Techniques you previously had, essentially "Revision Scooping" this character. At this point, a clusterfuck has already been enveloped but so much work was already put into this mod that it would be a damn shame to revert everything.

So I guess I'm gonna say that due to the unsuccessful "Purge", Bright and I have agreed to allow this crazy mod. Consider it even for staff stalling your other apps. It would be ill-advised for you to do another huge update in the future. Please consider doing significantly smaller updates or load everything on scoops.

  1. I'm citing this for our previous SD-to-SP discussion. You should have 310 SP based on my past calculations.

  2. Ice Age: Typo, Medium AoE should be 16

  3. Fire Works 2: Total Effects add up to a Min R26. Gonna have to bump that Rank up by 2.

  4. Crazy Fire Works: Same as above

  5. Stampede: Total Effects add up to a Min R56. You're going to have to adjust this.

  6. Minor Miner: I feel this needs a Tier clarification unless it's tierless. Some rocks can be as hard as iron, or even steel. *shrugs* This also definitely needs a Range limit for how far you can make tunnels.

  7. DONG: This is iffy because it technically uses Shockwaves too. Based on the Encyclopedia, I'm fairly confident Shockwaves can be used defensively. So I'm going to have to rule that you need to add a Shockwave effect in addition to the Deflection. Remove the "Vibration" part for Construct, just leave Construct as it is. This makes the Technique a R42, which unfortunately affects your branch. Your Power numbers were also initially incorrect by 2.
Fortunately for you, flag isn't broken if there's no opposition to what I propose. Fix them up, I run a TP check, and then I approve this.
I'm going to be less active as of 9/25/17. Kinda hitting a point where I'm contemplating why I'm here while having a full-time job.

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geomease
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It wasn;t my choice that the techniques I had no longer functioned with the system. And it was a poor decision to not allow patch scoops with the latest patch if I'm being honest. I would have gladly done this whole thing as a patch scoop if not for the fact they were for some unfathomable reason banned. If not for completely reworking those impossible techniques from the ground up what could I have done, just keep using them the way they were even though they were impossible and broke the rules?

1) I believe I agreed with you on this already and stated it would be changed when the app is finished, no sense in making a million different edits.

2) done

3) done

4) done

5) I had accidentally pasted the wrong technique effects, was supposed to be long range not very long range. Its been corrected and the numbers should ass up now.

6) I believe this works the same way as it does with Choppers tunneling abilities, or that mole woman's tunneling abilities, or that shark fishmans tunneling abilities. It just lets me move my normal speed just underground. Also just default rock, in our system things are pretty uniform in terms of toughness. Iron and Brass may be to completely different metals but they are just as hard despite this.

7) that's exactly what i had before, but was told not to and to remove shockwave. Bright says I should add eflection and remove shockwave, you say I need to remove deflection and add shockwave. its fairly aggravating when I'm being told to do 2 completely different conflicting things from 2 different mods. Who am i supposed to choose, who do i listen too?

I'll change it back to the way it was before Bright tld me to change it but if I'm told to rerechange it back again i may flip my shit.
Edited by geomease, Jan 30 2017, 01:49 AM.
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