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| Logia Questions | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 15 2013, 11:15 AM (567 Views) | ||
| KileyBarker | Jan 15 2013, 11:15 AM Post #1 | |
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A True Hero
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I have a few questions and grievances with the answers should they be what I've been told on the cbox. Questions:
Answers I've been given:
My grievances with these answers: 1. It makes no sense for a logia to control a material they claim they "Produced." How are they controlling this? It makes more sense for them to control material if it is actually a part of their body, because you have control over your own body. But to have complete remote control over any "produced" element means that they basically are conveying a form of telekinesis to shape these objects. ex: I shoot out a magma stream that then spans into a magma net when you try to dodge to the side. You haki punch the magma but since it isn't part of my body it does nothing. You scream and die writhing in pain. The example above isn't far fetched at all, except for the simple question I want answered: "How does the mamga human shape their magma after they've produced it?" Do they have some form of telekinesis whenever it governs element that has come from their own body? Are there any canon examples of people showcasing complete control over "Produced" element with a logia that has no weakness whatsoever? Or have they only been shown to shape and mold their elements when it is actually a part of their body? Has this whole "Produced" element thing gotten out of hand and led to a form of munching just to avoid a canon weakness? These are the questions I want answered. I have a logia character myself. Can I produce a cotton shirt connected to an invisible thin fiber and when someone puts it on manipulate them like a puppet despite them having seastone armor over it? I've been told I could by some major logia users on the site already. This scares me how rediculously overpowered these logias are and I really question the tiering of other fruits should all of these things be true. Should the wax devil fruit be capable of making an army of wax clones that can actually move and fight for him if he first produces a magnificent "Swamp" of wax everywhere first? How can mercury or smoke create these massive fields of their element and control every last particle of it without it being part of them? It seems a bit far fetched to me. |
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| Darkhunter | Jan 15 2013, 12:14 PM Post #2 | |
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Anti-Pika Specialist
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Yes and no. They can have some control but its really not that good at all though a logia can have their body split apart however as proved by monet and have control of both pieces still. But no when a element is not connected to you your control over it is very limited, for instance Ace was able to suck in the flames around him into his body remotely without any connection during their the fight with BB. Again yes and no. Much like with production paramecias it is a part of yourself the way a sword would be a part of Zoro's body you have absolute full control over it but breaking the sword does not break the user's arm. Expanding the body with their element is what makes logias vulnerable. There was some confusion of this due to a recent chapter which apparently most people never went through college English to learn about grammar. |
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| KileyBarker | Jan 15 2013, 12:15 PM Post #3 | |
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A True Hero
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Tie a sword to a string. Can you completely control it with the same proficiency as when you held it in your hands? Edit: I would really appreciate it if you read my entire post too. Not just the overviews at the top. I put those there so you could get the general idea of the post, but not so you could give replies without even reading the entire thing. Edited by KileyBarker, Jan 15 2013, 12:35 PM.
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| Darkhunter | Jan 15 2013, 12:39 PM Post #4 | |
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Anti-Pika Specialist
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Sword on a string is a good analogy for how logia/production para stuff works when not connected to a person. and yes addressing an issue before all logias have a shit ton of potential even the crappiest ones which is why they are at the lowest tier 3. |
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| Yuan | Jan 15 2013, 06:47 PM Post #5 | |
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Your best nightmare.
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Now wait a minute. I agree with Zander on some of this. Firstly, with the remote control, I would say it is VERY limited at best. When Crocodile shot off his Desert Spada, I saw nothing to suggest that he could alter the direction in mid attack or control it in any way after he fired it off. After using Sables to create a sandstorm to strike Yuba, Crocodile himself says "Its to big now, not even I could control it." When Akainu launched a rain of magma fists from the sky during the war on the summit, I saw nothing to suggest he could control their direction or manipulate them in any way once they were falling from the sky. I never saw Aokiji manipulate his Partisans after throwing them, nor Kizaru redirect his lasers. To be honest, I have not seen any evidence suggesting that Logias can remotely control their ranged techniques, or their element that they are not in contact with. What evidence is there that Logias are capable of this? |
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| Beary | Jan 15 2013, 10:37 PM Post #6 | |
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Have Some Class
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http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Mera_Mera_no_Mi >Techniques Hotarubi and Hidurama are ranged without any clear connection to the main body. Also the example which Dark gave about Ace sucking in the flames of the burning buildings that he started but which got amplified by burning the wood and spreading. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Suna_Suna_no_Mi > Crocodile can control his Sables technique, but not after it gets too big, showing that there's either a limit in mass / power. Could be argued seeing how it got so big because the size increase came from the deserts sand, not the sand Crocodile originally produced. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Goro_Goro_no_Mi > El Thor and Raigo have been seen used without any indication of a direct link between Enel and the technique. This doesn't mean there wasn't some kind of link, seeing how Enel was able to listen to the electric waves across the air or some bullshit like that to have a field over the entire island. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Gasu_Gasu_no_Mi > The technique Karakuni removes oxygen from within a limited range of Ceasar, which being ranged or not could be argued. The whole gas fruit could be argued to not having constant physical contact, but I digress. The main body of a logia can be controlled no matter how it get's separated, but also that creates a larger area to be hit by a haki user. It's obvious that if a logia user kept their distance and used ranged attacks they'd be fine against Haki. The problem is the control over those ranged attacks. We really don't have much to go by, seeing how majority of the attacks performed in the series this far by logias have been either part of their body, or projectiles, which by all logic you'd be limiting in their speed thus efficiency if you started to control them. So to sum up: > Logias have shown control over their produced element over range. (eq. Mera, Goro) > They have also shown some control over things related to their power which they didn't create with some kind of range. (eq. Gasu, Mera) > They aren't able to control something related to their element if it's too big, too far and / or not something they made. (Gasu, Suna) That's my two cents. |
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| geomease | Jan 15 2013, 10:53 PM Post #7 | |
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Fabulous
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As far as ace sucking up the flames goes the way I understood it is that logia's can only control their element that they produce. if someone creates a campfire with a match the fire logia can't control that campfire. however they could mix their fire into it and thus control it then. That kinda made sense to me with the way Crocodiles powers worked. He was supposedly "unbeatable" in the desert because by mixing his sand with the desert sand he could effectively to a degree control the desert itself. The reason he couldn't control that giant sandstorm after he created it was because his Sables only provided the starting fuel. As it moved forward it picked up more and more sand that he himself didn't create. I'm assuming for a logia whose mixed their element with an outside source of their element it has to maintain a certain ratio in order for them to control it to any degree. | |
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| Yuan | Jan 16 2013, 01:07 AM Post #8 | |
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Your best nightmare.
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I never said that Logias couldn't use ranged attacks, of course they can. But being able to throw a ranged attack does not mean you can retain total control over it post-launch. Obviously, Akainu can throw a giant fist made of lava, its been shown, Daifunka (Great Eruption). What I'm saying is that after shooting it out, he shouldn't be able to have it turn 90 degrees to the right, open up and try to grab somebody as though it were his own arm. I'm saying that Logias shouldn't be able to create animals or clones out of their element and have them prance around the battlefield burning/freezing/shocking people to death as if they were NPCs. I'm saying that logia users can throw ranged attacks, but they have to be thrown from the user themselves, and once thrown, they can only move in the way in which they were thrown. Logia users cannot control their ranged attacks at will once they have left their body. If this isn't the case then Crocodile should be able to use Mass Erosion on things without having to touch them, Aokiji should be able to freeze things without touching them, Ace should be able to make things burst into flame just by looking at them funny. Logia users have complete control over their elemental bodies and can produce endless amounts of their element from their bodies, but once the element has left their bodies, I have seen no evidence that logia users have telekinetic-like control over the element. |
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| K1ngIsBack | Jan 16 2013, 01:22 AM Post #9 | |
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That one King dude
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You seem to be ignoring the best example so far, that of Mera Mera, so I'm going to assume you didn't read any of the multiple examples Beary provided. | |
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| Yuan | Jan 16 2013, 03:28 AM Post #10 | |
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Your best nightmare.
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*sigh* Fine, if I must address each example individually... Sables- Crocodile is shown controlling it while it is in his hand. Once it gets big he says he can't control it. Now, logically we can assume that, like you said he could break his body up and mix his sand in with a sandstorm and bring it under control so long as it is not to big. However, this would mean he would be in contact with the storm, and thus it is not a remote control technique like what we are talking about. Raigo- This is a very simple technique where Enel builds up a massive ball of electrical energy and drops it like a bomb... That is a very simple ranged attack and requires no remote control. The ball is created by Enel channeling electricity from his own body into the ball, or from Maxim, his ship, which he was pumping electricity from his body into. Either way, it equates to pumping element from his body into the ball then dropping it on his target. Karakuni- This is one of the reasons why the mods get a little miffed at Oda Sensei for going overboard with some of his powers, and the reason why the Gasu Gasu no Mi is a banned fruit. If you read the description, it says that CC removes the air from an area around himself, asphyxiating anyone around him. The logic behind this is that the air is gas (oxygen, nitrogen, with a couple other gasses making a small showing... thats what we breath) so Caesar can control it to an extent. So, following that logic, of course CC's body is in contact with the air around him and so he can control it. El Thor- Thats a clever find, but if you read the description, it says that Enel "...gather's electricity over the area...". So, Enel throws a bolt up over the target and it explodes vertically. Thats not that special, even a non-DF inventor could make a grenade to do pretty much the same thing, though probably not on that scale. It doesn't really provide any definitive proof of remote control, more of like a timed explosive type ability, but I'll concede an Inconclusive on that one. Hotarubi/Hidaruma- These two look pretty much like a single technique. A cloud of tiny explosive fireballs fly out of Ace's hands and strike his target. Thats what it looks like in the manga. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SoA5MbaU7JM http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5i7xJvYz_s Looks like it in the anime too... Basically the tiny fireballs float into the air around his target and explode. If you look here: http://s1.zetaboards.com/One_Piece_RP/topic/4261775/1/#new You'll see Hideo's namesake character Hideo Katsua. He uses many different kinds of explosives, including one (see techniques) called "Rocket Bomber". These are little bomblets that each have their own little rockets to propell them at the enemy. Ace just fires these little timed fire bombs at the enemy. Its like they have a fuse, like a regular bomb. As for Ace sucking up the fire, is that in his big fight with Blackbeard? Cause I don't see that anywhere in the manga... |
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| Beary | Jan 16 2013, 12:42 PM Post #11 | |
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Have Some Class
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I didn't put anything down specifically against anything else. I just provided canon examples of ranged attacks and the amount of control we've seen from them. The sum up at the end is also how I see and think Logias are/should be handled. Some kind of control over range of produced element, in some cases without touch. Maybe not over projectile techniques which are as said: projectiles. But maybe over the leftovers? I don't know. Logia are supposed to be strong as hell, they're the only types of Devil Fruits that completely don't require any physical strength from their user for more efficiency. canonly. Some limits are needed and those are up to the staff to decide. Though that is something I'd totally do if possible, I don't think it would be fair. Edited by Beary, Jan 16 2013, 12:43 PM.
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| Yuan | Jan 16 2013, 05:36 PM Post #12 | |
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Your best nightmare.
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Again, ranged attacks are fine. But Logias don't need full kinesis-style control. The ability to completely nullify damage from any attack that isn't haki-infused or their elemental weakness. Complete control over and ability to produce as much of their element as they want from their body. And, most of the elements could deal damage just by touch alone, and those that don't usually have an extra side ability like the Suna's erosion, or the Numa's sinking, the Gasu'a poison. Logias are already uber-powered enough. We don't need to be granting them more power than we have evidence to support. |
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