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| Re-evaluating Professions | |||||||||||||
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 23 2012, 12:15 AM (671 Views) | |||||||||||||
| Dyson | Jun 23 2012, 12:15 AM Post #1 | ||||||||||||
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Old Sea Dog
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Hey guys, I know a lot of us have been bothered by Professions for a while, particularly as some of them come across as a lot weaker than others. Kind of an amateur's mistake situation, like taking Weapon Specialist as Primary, while all the learned people can shake their head. This really isn't how it should be. If people want to be Weapon Specialists, that's good! They should have unique options and abilities, and know of where their limits are, and it should be at least somewhat balanced. Since a lot of people want to use the sword, WS in particular is punished. The intention apparently to draw folks to rarer, useful professions, and, I kid you not, the opinion has been in the past that if someone realises WS is useless after taking it Primary, "Too bad". So, in order to facilitate a good discussion, I've gone through everything I know regarding the Professions and written it all down. There's a lot of data to go through, and it can change depending on who you're talking to. This is meant to allow comparison, so you can look at both professions on as level a playing field as I could create. Two notes before I let you read this. First, I am not a mod, I do not have a personal view of the inside of any mod or admin's head, and as such there will be unwritten information I am not privy to. There's some information here that may not be entirely correct either, but most of it is based on my understanding and what little I can be outright told. Second, this is not a final say on all Professions. This is a series of opinions and facts based on Professions. If there is anything incorrect in my data, or an interpretation is off, these can be changed or accounted for. If a mod has to note that Thieves get Poison techs, I'd like to add that. If someone feels my understanding of chefs is wrong, please say so. I want people to be able to use this information to come to an agreement about what can be changed and how far it can go, and then have some members of the staff internalize those feelings. With that said, enjoy reading, my suggestions are in the final spoiler. Profession Overview A Look at Primary Bonuses A Look at Profession-based Techniques A Look at Profession-related Items A Look at Profession Traits A Look at 1/2 Traits Final Suggestions & Thoughts
Edited by Dyson, Jun 26 2012, 03:30 PM.
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Mariko Hel Eljudnir • No Position • Carpenter/Martial Artist • No Crew • Bounty: 58,000,000 • SD Earned: 200 • Beli: 41,000,000 • Location: Island of Rage, Grand Line • Strength: 80 • Speed: 45 • Stamina: 70 • Accuracy: 35 • Fortune: 53 • Lark Reyes • Commander • Inventor / Marksman/Martial Artist/Smith • The Ardent Wings • Commendations: 41 • SD Earned: 287 • Beli: 45,572,500 • Location: Kyuka, Route 2 • Strength: 53 • Speed: 125 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 125 • Fortune: 67 • Veice Vicious • No Position • Navigator / Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Threat: 103.5 • SD Earned: 215 • Beli: 20,850,000 • Location: Loguetown, East Blue • Strength: 84 • Speed: 84 • Stamina: 55 • Accuracy: 50 • Fortune: 57 • Ritsuka 'Rizumu' Meiban • No Position • Entertainer/Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Bounty: 60,00,000 • SD Earned: 214 • Beli: 48,900,000 • Location: Naia Island, Route 4 • Strength: 45 • Speed: 60 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 65 • Fortune: 56 • Remember those who tread before you. Jeanne Larahe • Alycia Rose Crawford • Sanosuke 'Onii-chan' Harada • Lina Aconite | |||||||||||||
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| KileyBarker | Jun 23 2012, 07:12 AM Post #2 | ||||||||||||
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A True Hero
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I'm just going to make a note on Weak Point Sighted. I took this trait on a "near starter level" character. It was a good decision (for a while). When a character is near starter level the trait Weak Point Sighted grants them a wonderful ability. I believe my character took out three buildings and one pirate ship throughout his entire career (career meaning while he was starter level) by using nothing more than a rank 6 explosive technique. The trait was extremely useful since, logically, my character's explosives would be too weak at rank 6 to damage the infrastructure of any building much. Even with the trait, however, I still made my character apply four of his explosives before I would even contemplate having the building/ship fall. This number just made sense to me. Even with the trait I felt taking down a building with one shot was kind of a long shot. The problem arose as my character hit the 50 sd mark. With a small investment into fortune my character would be capable of r14 explosives. Rank 14 explosives have been noted multiple times on multiple different characters to be capable of bringing down smaller structures on their own. Now this begs the question: if a trait should always be worth something, then what is the value of Weak Point Sighted once a character becomes capable of rank 28 explosives? |
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"And says 'at last' just as the time bell rings Goodnight, now it's time to go home And he makes it fast with one more thing We are the Sultans We are the Sultans of Swing" Characters 🐐 🐏
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| GlasgowSmiley | Jun 23 2012, 07:45 AM Post #3 | ||||||||||||
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♠ Cool Loser ♠
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@ Zander, the trait remains useful anyhow. When you become strong enough to destroy support pillars with punches etc. You still have that edge over everyone, generally your freeform has more options to it with that trait. @ Dyson, we are constantly working on this topic really. Thank you for the input, though it was around in one way or another in one of the many professions topics we have, it's nice to have a summary. I once suggested making throwing weapons a weapon specialist thing and letting them cut upkeep for said weapons, kind of like marksman. But that remained nothing more than a suggestion. The topic still deserves some attention though. |
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AngelMayLaugh (6/9/14 8:25:03 PM): ICY BRINGING THE FIRE![]() The Antagonists
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| Ace65 | Jun 23 2012, 10:28 AM Post #4 | ||||||||||||
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I really hope that any changes made to professions/profession traits take this thread into account, because they really need it. As it is, I know I'm going to have to scoop my bounty hunter at one point just because there's no point in having WS primary. | ||||||||||||
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Frank Wilson • Weapon Specialist/Marksman • Totally a CP agent • Threat: 4.5 • SD Earned: 63 • Beli: 13,786,000 • Location: Briss Kingdom, South Blue Venus Sandoval • Bartender/Inventor/Markswoman/Mixologist • Shining Black Pirates • Bounty: 8,000,000 • SD Earned: 44 • Beli: 16,273,550 • Location: Bausyer Island, North Blue Malcolm Jeffries • Marksman/Gunsmith • Gear n' Sprocket Pirates • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • Location: Red Sand Island, West Blue Dross Adari • Navigator/Martial Artist • Starlit Dreamers • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • L: Candy Island | |||||||||||||
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| ♠ RainingBlades | Jun 23 2012, 11:13 AM Post #5 | ||||||||||||
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Excellent Host
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I'm no C-mod, but Yak and I had a discussion about this awhile back about whether or not a trait like this would be legitimate, where basically you could break tier metals at a lower strength or something along those lines. |
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Literally Annie The Gang On Hiatus Never Forget thelonelynarrators | |||||||||||||
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| NeonCactus | Jun 23 2012, 01:20 PM Post #6 | ||||||||||||
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Farragoic Imbroglio
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Dyson is smurt and this all sounds like it's worth mod discussion. I'm simply too green to know if there's a topic about it already. |
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Maxwell Rogard What He Has To Be • Rank: Lieutenant (15) • SD Earned: 143 • Beli: 34,820,000 • Location: Where Justice Dwells •§ Strength: 67 § Speed: 36 § Stamina: 36 § Accuracy: 36 § Fortune: 43 § For Her Pleasure
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| burnedalive | Jun 23 2012, 03:52 PM Post #7 | ||||||||||||
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Fairy Killer
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At the very least the Discount changes should be put into affect. It's extremely counter-intuitive to take a primary when you'll only override all or part of the bonus with a trait. | ||||||||||||
![]() All thanks to Dan and Vince~ Characters
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| Dyson | Jun 26 2012, 03:32 PM Post #8 | ||||||||||||
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Old Sea Dog
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Glad this is getting such a warm reception, though I am a little disappointed in the lack of further (public) discussion about this. I hope it's doing some good behind the scenes. I had to make a small edit due to one of my own mistakes. Inventors do not only have their 20% cost reduction, but they also have a Upkeep Negation on their combat devices. Integrating this and taking everything else into account sets Inventors as arguably the most powerful profession for Primary. |
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Mariko Hel Eljudnir • No Position • Carpenter/Martial Artist • No Crew • Bounty: 58,000,000 • SD Earned: 200 • Beli: 41,000,000 • Location: Island of Rage, Grand Line • Strength: 80 • Speed: 45 • Stamina: 70 • Accuracy: 35 • Fortune: 53 • Lark Reyes • Commander • Inventor / Marksman/Martial Artist/Smith • The Ardent Wings • Commendations: 41 • SD Earned: 287 • Beli: 45,572,500 • Location: Kyuka, Route 2 • Strength: 53 • Speed: 125 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 125 • Fortune: 67 • Veice Vicious • No Position • Navigator / Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Threat: 103.5 • SD Earned: 215 • Beli: 20,850,000 • Location: Loguetown, East Blue • Strength: 84 • Speed: 84 • Stamina: 55 • Accuracy: 50 • Fortune: 57 • Ritsuka 'Rizumu' Meiban • No Position • Entertainer/Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Bounty: 60,00,000 • SD Earned: 214 • Beli: 48,900,000 • Location: Naia Island, Route 4 • Strength: 45 • Speed: 60 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 65 • Fortune: 56 • Remember those who tread before you. Jeanne Larahe • Alycia Rose Crawford • Sanosuke 'Onii-chan' Harada • Lina Aconite | |||||||||||||
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| Ace65 | Jun 26 2012, 05:59 PM Post #9 | ||||||||||||
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Well, not trying to turn this into a Profession Ahoy, so to speak but so long as we're hoping more are working on this... What about the possibility of adding traits aimed specifically at certain combination of professions? You actually suggested some ideas yourself Dyson- WS/Smith combos could get a discount on powerful weapons in their specific field. Chef/entertainers put on a show while they cook, and the cap on their buffs could be a little higher than a chef/entertainer primary. Merchant/Thief combos could get access to a black market, allowing then to purchase items they might not be able to normally. And so forth. Obviously not all combinations work well together, but it could give a reason to take those professions that are otherwise useless in the secondary spot, and maybe cut down on the overlap of traits. |
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Frank Wilson • Weapon Specialist/Marksman • Totally a CP agent • Threat: 4.5 • SD Earned: 63 • Beli: 13,786,000 • Location: Briss Kingdom, South Blue Venus Sandoval • Bartender/Inventor/Markswoman/Mixologist • Shining Black Pirates • Bounty: 8,000,000 • SD Earned: 44 • Beli: 16,273,550 • Location: Bausyer Island, North Blue Malcolm Jeffries • Marksman/Gunsmith • Gear n' Sprocket Pirates • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • Location: Red Sand Island, West Blue Dross Adari • Navigator/Martial Artist • Starlit Dreamers • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • L: Candy Island | |||||||||||||
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| Dyson | Jun 26 2012, 06:40 PM Post #10 | ||||||||||||
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Old Sea Dog
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Compliment Traits bring about two main issues, in my mind. First of all, you wouldn't want people getting too much of a discount on anything - that's why none of the discounts stack. If people were able to buy weapons or ships at 50% the cost, a lot of really ridiculous things would be purchased a lot earlier. Because of this, you can't really advance anything beyond a certain scope. Let's say, for instance, that was a WS/Smith Trait that gave you 40% off all weapons in your style. That's a pretty notable amount. However, you're rewarding a specific combination of professions too much. If you gave WS a 30% discount, for example, that would not likely work. Thus, if you're WS/Smith, the fairest thing to do is take the Smith's 30% discount. Combining them doesn't balance out. Second, it's the sheer number of possible combinations. Giving too much weight to certain combinations might end up a bit unfair. A Doctor/Scientist can't really make better poisons, chemicals or drugs do the combination, so traits focused on those won't make a huge difference. Giving a trait to a Carpenter/Smith that lets them apply the Smith crafting bonus to metal ship parts doesn't add much of value either. You'd find people making excuses for every possible pair (Or even trio) to get what they wanted if the combination traits were better. Now, I can see some possibilities as well. Custom traits for one class that require the traits of another to cause the same impression could work, but it depends on how much multiple traits can be valued. If, for example, Weapon Specialist had a Profession Trait that required Smith's 30% discount, and in turn gave you a personal +10% discount to weapons of your type, you'd be spending 2 traits for 40%, but if it's worth that (Or even balanced) is a much greater study. Also take into consideration one of the most important things I've always said about stuff like professions: Work with what you have and make it your own. Take Marksman/Inventor. It'd make sense to have a Trait in Marksman that gives you special TP for ammo you create. You could call it a Marksman/Inventor trait because of the way they interact. However, Inventor already a special TP Trait for crafting. You can easily just make your special ammos qualify under Inventor. To focus on your ideas in particular, in think WS/Smith is mostly covered due to other issues. A Chef/Entertainer sounds really interesting (Particularly if you figure out a way to cook during combat), but if cap raisers are even legal (As in, +2 Ranks to techniques of those type, +3 to max Rank) for non-combat classes, it'd fall mostly under Chef. If you had a character who could perform the creation of their food as a buff, and then serve up the buff, it'd probably qualify as two techniques. A qualifier of '+x Ranks to techniques involving food and cooking' might work for both, but it'd be a stretch up to the mods. As for a Merchant/Thief getting access to special 'Black Market' goods, I think it should be an accessible sub-category for goods as a standard purchase bonus for those professions, not a trait bonus (A discount trait for materials that come from unique settings (Red Sand, Supreme Salt) would be incredibly focused but might be applicable to either profession). |
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Mariko Hel Eljudnir • No Position • Carpenter/Martial Artist • No Crew • Bounty: 58,000,000 • SD Earned: 200 • Beli: 41,000,000 • Location: Island of Rage, Grand Line • Strength: 80 • Speed: 45 • Stamina: 70 • Accuracy: 35 • Fortune: 53 • Lark Reyes • Commander • Inventor / Marksman/Martial Artist/Smith • The Ardent Wings • Commendations: 41 • SD Earned: 287 • Beli: 45,572,500 • Location: Kyuka, Route 2 • Strength: 53 • Speed: 125 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 125 • Fortune: 67 • Veice Vicious • No Position • Navigator / Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Threat: 103.5 • SD Earned: 215 • Beli: 20,850,000 • Location: Loguetown, East Blue • Strength: 84 • Speed: 84 • Stamina: 55 • Accuracy: 50 • Fortune: 57 • Ritsuka 'Rizumu' Meiban • No Position • Entertainer/Weapon Specialist • No Crew • Bounty: 60,00,000 • SD Earned: 214 • Beli: 48,900,000 • Location: Naia Island, Route 4 • Strength: 45 • Speed: 60 • Stamina: 54 • Accuracy: 65 • Fortune: 56 • Remember those who tread before you. Jeanne Larahe • Alycia Rose Crawford • Sanosuke 'Onii-chan' Harada • Lina Aconite | |||||||||||||
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| Darkhunter | Jun 26 2012, 06:48 PM Post #11 | ||||||||||||
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Professions were being discussed months before this came into discussion. Hence the change in what only blacksmiths can do which we've implemented already. I don't know if this helped the others though with their own opinions on topics, but it was pretty much all known to me and i'll assume most of us. | ||||||||||||
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| Ace65 | Jun 27 2012, 06:20 AM Post #12 | ||||||||||||
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I was gonna write up a bit more on combo professions, but since this would need a lot of mod focus to develop/balance/implement and we already have a problem with the current professions, it may not be the smartest move to suggest even more work on that end. I'll just love that idea for whoever has the creativity to make a custom profession based off of combo ideas and leave it at that. And yes, I was thinking Black Market goods would be a fitting way for Merchants to access the Locality materials, Red Sand/Seaking Bones/etc. As for alternate trait ideas, what about giving merchants the chance to sell Profession-specific items directly to their crewmates? A few unique items that apply to each class that cannot be purchased normally, only through the merchant, whose business sense allows them to negotiate the purchase. Pop Greens available for marksman, who integrate them into their bullets, some manner of Dial-weapon for inventors, etc. |
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Frank Wilson • Weapon Specialist/Marksman • Totally a CP agent • Threat: 4.5 • SD Earned: 63 • Beli: 13,786,000 • Location: Briss Kingdom, South Blue Venus Sandoval • Bartender/Inventor/Markswoman/Mixologist • Shining Black Pirates • Bounty: 8,000,000 • SD Earned: 44 • Beli: 16,273,550 • Location: Bausyer Island, North Blue Malcolm Jeffries • Marksman/Gunsmith • Gear n' Sprocket Pirates • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • Location: Red Sand Island, West Blue Dross Adari • Navigator/Martial Artist • Starlit Dreamers • Threat: 0 • SD Earned: 0 • Beli: 500,000 • L: Candy Island | |||||||||||||
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| Chips | Jun 27 2012, 09:11 AM Post #13 | ||||||||||||
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💩
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Tbh, didnt read it all but read suggestions and what not. I've always thought weapon specialist is underpowered. We currently have a WC topic basically discussing this exact same thing. Our hopes were/are to make professions more useful. This is the same topic where we decided that combining two different materials needs smith. As for something like weapon specialist, it'd be something like limiting those without weapon specialist to making only up to rank 28 techs if the tech involves a weapon. That's an example mind you and in no way has been discussed or finalized so don't jump to conclusions. Now, more on the matter. Yes, it does seem that some professions and traits are only good for early-game and some for end-game, but that's kinda what we want. It's all about character customization and how you want to go about RPing your character. You can either invest in the early game stuff first to beef up your character while they are weak, or invest into the end game professions/traits to help you down the road without a scoop. Like I said, it's their choice. Next thing, remember this is supposed to be an RP more than an RPG. I realize there isn't much distinction between the two and our line is very feint, but ideally you should be choosing professions to fit your roleplaying experience. Do we monitor SLs to make sure someone without weapon specialist isn't defeating a master at swords (swords master)? No. Should we? Hell yeah. Will we? Lol. But still, not everyone needs to be a min/maxer. Think about the RP, people. Also, everyone makes mistakes; even veterans. This is one major reason we have such a thing as scooping to begin with. And one last thing about your suggestions. Keep in mind that profession bonuses should be less than the traits associated with them. Tl;dr, We aren't discussing a rework for professions, but we are discussing how some of the lamer professions can be more useful. |
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| Darkhunter | Jun 27 2012, 02:41 PM Post #14 | ||||||||||||
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Anti-Pika Specialist
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Its happened a few times but the punishment for basically misroleplaying is a slap on the wrist. In other words don't do it just because Chips said we don't monitor you much in rping. If I find out people are doing this now more than ever I will find you, and I will end you. |
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![]() happiest day ever Neon is a prophet the characters | |||||||||||||
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| Chips | Jun 27 2012, 03:14 PM Post #15 | ||||||||||||
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💩
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Duh. It wasn't an open invitation for people to start abusing rules. Just telling the truth. Scrubs |
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