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Conquering - the only way?
Topic Started: May 3 2012, 01:40 PM (2,062 Views)
GlasgowSmiley
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Not arguing that it isn't powerful but if your concern is that it's too good, in a situation with a fair distribution of sd in a fight between the df user and the haki user it schould be fair.

We are working on figuring this out, we are discussing the limits and how it should work in a fair way but your worries seem to come from a pvp perspective and a metagame perspective. If someone takes King's and pumps points in fortune not only do they lose a lot of base stats but they are also metagaming. Something about freedom of character creation and development makes staff stop meddling.

Would you like it if we were to say you have to distribute stats so and so? You have to take this, you have to limit yourself because of everyone else?
King's is in consideration but right now it's either useless because wow knock people out or OP because mook cannon for 7 traits feels inferior to any T1 fruit.

Honestly all i can say is we're aware of that and we're trying to fix it in a way to make everyone happy.

Additionally, custom haki is ridiculous in my person opinion. Don't know enough about why it is part of our system so I'll let someone who does know answer your questions on that.
AngelMayLaugh (6/9/14 8:25:03 PM): ICY BRINGING THE FIRE
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Serrational
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For the cost, I agree that Conquering Haki should be a pretty darn good weapon. And I was not trying to talk about PvP, I actively dislike PvP in most games I play. I was more meaning that in groups, people with Conquering Haki could effectively make the rest of the group useless or on the reverse, they could just be a mook cannon as you say. And I would really hate being told what to do with stats, so I accept that. But if the people with custom Haki protest that you're taking it away, wouldn't that make it really difficult to make any changes?

The whole point about Haki vs D.F. was that a Haki user's ability is but a thought, and it'll work no matter if they're a Logia, Paramecia, or whatever. They just have this cover-all move which works no matter what snazzy ability you have. And the sheer range of it makes Marksmen really the only thing I can think of here which can tackle it.

I may be thinking too much on the combat aspect here, but I suspect that some Narrators may like combat. I may be wrong though, newbie and all.
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Axel
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You'll be hard pressed to find a narrator dropping in a NPC with Conquerers.
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Serrational
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I was meaning a PC with it against NPCs without it.
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Axel
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It scales with fortune, and NPCs are more or less on the same level as the PC. Also high end NPCs have ways of fighting back hard, and a debuff is by no means enough to stop them. By the time you get conquerers there's a chance you'll be meeting some people with the capabilities to either play games with your stats or just enough brute force to kick your character around. For example you should look at the SL 'a cold front approaches'. It has prime examples of enemies that wouldn't be massively affected by Conquerers.
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Shamma
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Just responding to my parts...

The ability to reroll through scoops makes it harder. There's an element if luck in how hard(number of scoops), but it seems achievable if you are dedicated & very unlucky. The person getting conq haki and managing to get 'overdrive haki' approved in the overpowered format you are implying is probably a very convincing individual, not an idiot. These things are not just run of the mill approved.

The existing uses of custom haki are bland. The ideas I have seen are either quasi-stronger armour haki or making birds. There is a lot more abstract potential that does not necessarily equate to power/overpowered.

And the little thing from Green. A tier 1 fruit with the same rank technique probably decimates the mooks in the same manner!
Edited by Shamma, May 4 2012, 05:11 AM.
Piper • Pirate • Martial Artist/Weapon Specialist • Hot RocketsBounty: 343,000,000 • SD Earned: 881 • Beli: 259,500,000 • Location: Raijin Island

Jija Juju • Marine • Inventor/Marksman/Scholar/Doctor • FioreRank: Rear Admiral • SD Earned: 579 • Beli: 188,000,000 • Location: Couture Island, Grand Line

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Serrational
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Ooop. Referencing Rave Master there. By "Overdrive" I was meaning an absolutely ENORMOUS explosion. Like, a tenth of the world. Which would be broken.

Well... since custom Haki is so rare, people want to put it to practical use. If it was more common, more people might try and come up with odd forms.
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RainingBlades
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As Axel was explaining, NPCs aren't completely useless against King's haki. As Ice (GlasgowSmiley) described, it comes down to fortune vs fortune, and if we are narrating some high end NPCs for you to fight, we're going to make sure they can beat you. If you have a logia user, there will be at least someone who can potentially hurt you. If you have King's Haki, someone will have the fortune to not be as effected by it. There is no point in Narrating a fight where we already know who's going to win and that it's going to be as easy as "I knock you out with my haki."

I'm actually going to offer a little different reading than what Axel suggested: Ice Cold Discord. Sure, these are very high end NPCs, but it's important to note their powers. Also keep in mind that one of our (ex)crews fought the bounty hunter there and (obviously) lost, so don't try and say something like "But you're never gonna face one of those guys."

Finally, I'd like to adress this:

Quote:
 
The whole point about Haki vs D.F. was that a Haki user's ability is but a thought, and it'll work no matter if they're a Logia, Paramecia, or whatever. They just have this cover-all move which works no matter what snazzy ability you have.


Under no means necessary can Haki just beat any DF just because it's haki. I guarantee you that in several match ups, a good DF user can beat a haki user. It's also worth noting that haki does not negate logia powers. It's not like yami or seastone; it only lets you hit them (if you have the Rank 28 tech required). So if I'm, say, the mera mera user, than sure you can hit me if you have armaments haki, but if you can't use your haki to prevent yourself from being burned to a crisp, you better fit fast and hit hard.
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Serrational
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Well, Armament Haki is a different beast altogether, I began this about Conquering. When NPCs have to have darned high Fortune all the time against any user of Conquering Haki, it seems a bit stilted as to why you should be running into these particular people all the time. Does this mean that upon gaining it, every NPC you run into subsequently suddenly is high in Fortune?
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KileyBarker
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How you rp is really up to you in the end. If you are doing stupid things that would attract high end npcs then yeah you will probably end up fighting them. If you simply rp your character living a day to day life as a fisherman then you could probably never meet one. In the end it is all based on how you want to rp. If you try to do something stupid that would bring attention to yourself (Such as causing massive destruction on Alabasta) then a high end npc might just get dropped on you. It all depends on how you rp and how your adventures go.
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Yaksha
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As a note, but the most a person really needs to survive a conquerer's blast is about ~40% of someone's fortune. That means that if you're a player with 200 fortune, anyone with 80+ can stand their ground afterwards. Granted they'll suffer a debuff, but it's no worse than what you'd get from any other debuff.

By and large conquerer's is there for when there's already such a huge gap that the character is equally fucked whether you Haki them or just punch their face off.
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Yaksha (Laneh) • Assassin • Martial Artist • Navigator • Thief • Ragnarok PiratesBounty: 75,000,000 • SD Earned: 0/300 • Beli: 35,350,000 • Location: Weatheria
Strength: 57------Stamina:50------Speed:75--------Accuracy:60-------Fortune:78

Malikai • Marksman • Smith • Doctor • Scientist • N/A • Threat: 34.5 • SD Earned: 0/177 • Beli: 18,750,000 • Location: Candy Island
Strength: 45------Stamina:39------Speed:40--------Accuracy:60-------Fortune:61

Juan • Inventor • Weapon Specialist Bounty: 5,000,000 • SD Earned:0/88 • Beli: 23,350,000 • Location:
Strength: 45------Stamina:35------Speed:25--------Accuracy:25-------Fortune:30

Ahriman (Savlin) • Doctor • Scientist • N/A • Threat: 2 • SD Earned: 0/47 • Beli: 8,270,000 • Location: Pharsalus Island
Strength: 15------Stamina:13------Speed:19--------Accuracy:25-------Fortune:23
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Serrational
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Well... that's much better to know some numbers. The debuff though, how nasty is it? And can't they then just fire off whatever custom Haki they've decided on? And, well, if it's just for redshirt removal, then why would you sink seven traits into it?
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Singularity
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You're complaining about something before fully understanding it, custom haki does not simply let you create at whim some new form of magic power as has been mentioned before there are boundaries and limits though due to it being in it's infant stage these are not fluently defined yet.

Custom haki is not something you should try to explain with logic since it is an ability outside cannon, it was given alongside color of the conqueror because in terms of performing against competition of a similar level CoC doesn't do much for a character that any other debuff wouldn't, now yes it does have the ability to knock out other characters but as yaksha pointed out in most instances the characters that would be knocked out stood very little chance of any other outcome in the first place.

It's thought of as those with CoC being the most advanced haki users with the greatest potential for it, which means they are able to create a single unique haki form which based on one of the already available colours but advances them in a direction unavailable to regular haki users.

Using jagi as an example she has advanced armor haki to the point where she is able to create projectiles of haki alone without having to imbue it into some base material.

Now as for the comment that high level techniques seem to be a case "i punch really hard" or "custom haki hijinks" that's just not the case, we have people who utilise fishman karate, shockwaves, poisons, devil fruit techniques, high level techniques are as varied as the characters it's really a matter of how creative you are with whats available to you.

Edit: if you take a look in the technique section of the rules it can tell you more about how much techniques can debuff for.
Edited by Singularity, May 4 2012, 08:10 AM.
Izuru & Yogi • Crew Position: Captain • Weapon Specialist • Frostbite PiratesBounty: 350,000,000 • SD Earned: 1192 • Beli: 345,100,000 • Location: Florian Triangle • Theme:

Kazuki • Crew Position:N/A • Assassin • N/ACommendations: 88 • SD Earned: 356 • Beli: 165,500,000 • Location: Little Garden

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Anthrax • Crew Position:N/A • Inventor • N/ABounty: 0 • SD Earned: 186 • Beli: 74,000,000 • Location:Gesso Island

Kuma • Crew Position:N/A • Smith • N/AThreat: 30 • SD Earned: 181 • Beli: 16,900,000 • Location:Custom Island
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GreenSerpent
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Singularity
May 4 2012, 08:08 AM
there are boundaries and limits though due to it being in it's infant stage these are not fluently defined yet.
But if the boundaries and limits were not completely set before Custom Haki was released how can anyone fully understand it at all?
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Singularity
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Do we really need to play word games? Yes you are correct you won't have a complete understanding of the in's out's and intricacies of the idea and all it's details, but the explanation i gave you gives a rough outline which from what i can see in this thread is a much better understanding than you had previously.
Izuru & Yogi • Crew Position: Captain • Weapon Specialist • Frostbite PiratesBounty: 350,000,000 • SD Earned: 1192 • Beli: 345,100,000 • Location: Florian Triangle • Theme:

Kazuki • Crew Position:N/A • Assassin • N/ACommendations: 88 • SD Earned: 356 • Beli: 165,500,000 • Location: Little Garden

Xavros • Crew Position:Fool • Entertainer • Theme tuneBounty: 103,000,000 • SD Earned: 406 • Beli: 191,000,000 • Location: Machine Island

Anthrax • Crew Position:N/A • Inventor • N/ABounty: 0 • SD Earned: 186 • Beli: 74,000,000 • Location:Gesso Island

Kuma • Crew Position:N/A • Smith • N/AThreat: 30 • SD Earned: 181 • Beli: 16,900,000 • Location:Custom Island
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