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Afterthought
Topic Started: Jan 4 2011, 12:26 PM (352 Views)
Vara
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Kakarot
Alright, so here comes the point where I do what Huntail did, cuz I feel that I should.

The first thing is that I believe I do know what a GM should be doing, even if I can't follow through with that. I didn't create War 15 with the intention of it being all for myself. When I was making sheets, I made them with the thought "I think someone will enjoy this, or at least be able to play it well." I'll admit there was the odd time when I likely got a little carried away, and made something a little too weird or powerful. But from what I've seen of what the biggest problems were, those things didn't really impact one another, with only one exception.

Assassin was admittedly on the low end of the scale. When I was making them, I knew that multiple entities could go in a very bad direction, and that it is hard to balance 3 characters that have to work together. Originally, Assassin was much stronger, and this was the thing I believe I got a little carried away with. Over time though, I realized this, and began to nerf them, bit by bit. First I lowered their stats, then their health, then raised their stats back a bit, then lowered the health again.

I probably shouldn't have done that last one. Although I think part of the reason why Assassin died so fast was that they were used in a mostly 1v1 style, without using any of the defensive skills open to them as a Team.

Next, I think a fair issue is that Berserker couldn't really die, outside one skill that Rider had. In theory yes, but in practice that was nearly impossible. I had even changed her battle continuation (With the player admitting that it should be) in the early parts of the war. I had changed it in a way that didn't impact earlier turns, but that I had hoped would prevent it from being abused.

It did absolutely nothing in that department.

But while I'm on the topic of Berserker (I'll be posting any missing sheets), her ability to copy other's abilities (Not skills, mind) is something I added in late, but that I think worked the way I wanted it to. I realize that it did encourage camping, but with Berserker the way she is, I figured that the player would likely be willing to jump into combat easily enough. I probably could have corrected Berserker's high end power and defenses mid game when she absorbed Linnea's abilities.

With Linnea, if she separates from Saber, she gets a little weaker. If Saber dies, she gets a lot weaker. When Berserker copied abilities, I had to adjust things a little, sometimes. This was one of them. When Berserker copied this ability, I wasn't sure if I should make it so that the ability, Fragile Psyche, should effect Berserker's original master, or Linnea. If I went with the former, then that would have been an instant nerf for Berserker of a rather large scale. At the time, I and the person I had been talking to it about decided that might be a little too douchey.

I should have probably done that; but hindsight is always sometimes 20/20, isn't it?

The next issue is, and probably the largest issue, that multi-hit moves were simply too powerful. Orrey's Sun, Devout Tempest, Trident Smasher. Orrey's Sun had a maximum base of 143.5, and dealt 43.1 damage to EX defenses. Devout Tempest had a base of 180, and could deal 54 damage against EX defenses, but this could be done to 4 people simultaneously. Enzo could not spam his tempest, however, while Caster could spam Orrey's Sun. Lancer's Trident Smasher was the best of the bunch, and had a base of 140.9, and did 42.3 to EX defenses. These numbers use only what is contained on the character's sheet, and exclude flight, classifications, command spells, and third party buffs.

In those 3 skills, Enzo could destroy things rather easily. He had almost killed Caster in one turn, and still dealt significant damage to Berserker. Caster did kill an Assassin in one turn, and did a lot of damage to Enzo as well. Lancer didn't use Trident Smash, but opted to boost her CQCs.

Speaking of which, I think the CQCs were about what I planned. I should have nerfed Lancer's skills a little, along with fixing everything else, if I wanted to keep her in line as well, but overall she had no problems that I can really think of.

Rider, Saber, and Archer were more or less how I wanted them. I should have lowered Saber's defenses a bit, buffed Archer a bit in her standard form, and I'm not sure what I would do differently to Rider: he didn't find much combat outside of a very difficult situation.

The masters were likely a bit too powerful. I intended Linnea to be the way she was, and I believe she worked out. Fiddler was a utility guy who could attack with minor damage, which I was happy with. Enzo was more or less set the way I intended. Karima was ideal to what I wanted, even if she only used 3 skills the entire war. Ko was incredibly durable, and could pump out decent damage. If I could change him, I would remove his stronger attack, and drop back his defense a little. I wanted a bit more ding dongery from him.

But thats not all the masters. Amelia was, because of the multihit skill she had, very powerful. 125 base with her Magic Missiles, dealing 37.5 to EX defenses. That's stupidly high for a master, even if she can't spam that level of damage.

Next up is Uso Davis. These two are actually siblings, and it seems their family decided that everything good goes to the favored daughter. Uso was a lot more.... useless than I really intended. The eavesdropping ability was probably the only useful one, but needed lucky/skillfully informed positioning. I would redo this entire sheet if I could, to be honest.

...
..
.

All in all, I should have done away with battle continuation (Like I was told I should), came down hard on multihits, and kept Assassin as one person, most likely. Oh, and given Lancer a real master. In theory, I don't think my war was that bad, and probably had a similar number of bugs to the earlier wars (Feel free to correct me. I AM Vara after all). But due to how the player base has become, and notable enough amounts of derp, the potential I think my War had was lost, more or less. Although I'm to blame for that anyway, with the impact I'm sure War Catastrophe had.

I'm also taking the time to say one other thing. I'm not going to GM any more wars. I'm obviously not the person for it, nor do I seem to have the time I keep imagining I do for it. I'll also not be participating in any for a while, as they end up being disappointing to play in (Not because of the systems or sheets, but simply because of how everyone acts), and since I'm not really part of the community and I don't really talk to anyone here, I doubt I'll be around much at all aside from a game of Mahjong or two once I learn more.

Also, Randerith, I'll give you a second chance to marry my sister, but I won't tell you what you have to do, just that it involves two bears, steak, and your left foot.

Have a good year, everyone. Best of luck with whatever it is you all do, and don't let Youphi get too lazy, or he'll turn fat.
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Martyrchan
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Vara
Jan 4 2011, 12:26 PM
Also, Randerith, I'll give you a second chance to marry my sister, but I won't tell you what you have to do, just that it involves two bears, steak, and your left foot.
Everyone keeps deciding this without me =(

You know I requested dolphins!
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Regaro
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lolreg
lmao dolphins

manatees > lolphins
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Martyrchan
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I didn't even consider manatees....

WHAT HAVE I DONE?!
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Touphi
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Protagonist
Quote:
 
Although I think part of the reason why Assassin died so fast was that they were used in a mostly 1v1 style, without using any of the defensive skills open to them as a Team.


What, a 20% damage "reduction" I forgot to turn on? Probably wouldn't have helped. Softens up the other girls pretty quick.

Quote:
 
Archer... more or less how I wanted them.


Archer was pretty terrible imo. Great at being in Spirit Form, though.

Quote:
 
Also, Randerith, I'll give you a second chance to marry my sister, but I won't tell you what you have to do, just that it involves two bears, steak, and your left foot.


I should be allowed to try, too.
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gravy
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Try hard, camp harder
Allowing servants to exist in spirit form away from their master is such a bad idea. Among others...

Also this reminds me to finish my own.
Edited by gravy, Jan 4 2011, 01:54 PM.
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Avvil
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Weaver of Tales
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 01:51 PM
Allowing servants to exist in spirit form away from their master is such a bad idea. Among others...
This is a non-issue in general.
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gravy
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Try hard, camp harder
Avvil
Jan 4 2011, 02:23 PM
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 01:51 PM
Allowing servants to exist in spirit form away from their master is such a bad idea. Among others...
This is a non-issue in general.
I guess. Every time that I can think of spirit formed servants away from their master has ended generally poorly, however. It was only extrapolated when Karima could hide indefinitely.
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Randerith
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Error.
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Also, Randerith, I'll give you a second chance to marry my sister, but I won't tell you what you have to do, just that it involves two bears, steak, and your left foot.


I-I'm not entirely sure how this is designed but I shall figure it out! Marry, my love, shall be mine in the end! It's my irrevocable RandyxMarry proof.

Quote:
 
Everyone keeps deciding this without me =(

You know I requested dolphins!


Love, I'll take any risk!

Quote:
 
I should be allowed to try, too.

I'll kill you.

-----------------------------------

Randerith's Afterthought:

The reason of my awkward gameplay this war was primarily because I wanted to see how Touphi felt by camping so I initiated his tactics. Soon, I discovered that that probably was the worst mistake I made in OT Grail War history. So damn boring. Touphi, I don't know how you manage it.

Later on in the war, I decided to adopt Regaro's gameplay. Don't think, attack, hope you survive kind of play. And hell, that was fun. I killed Rider and then engaged with Lancer/Caster immediately after. Hell if I knew if I'd live or not but the fun of the game came from not knowing and kicking ass by barely surviving.

Towards the end of the war, I camped for several turns simply because...after the fight with Lancer/Caster, Berserker had -47 health and Saber had 7 health. Though I'm willing to risk many things, engaging right now would be plain stupid. I had planned to engage with everyone the turn Vara ended the war. Then I heard Touphi hid with his 'neva gonna find me' skill so that would've been moot effort anyway.

tl;dr: I want to marry Martyr. That is all.
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Avvil
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Weaver of Tales
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 03:58 PM
Avvil
Jan 4 2011, 02:23 PM
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 01:51 PM
Allowing servants to exist in spirit form away from their master is such a bad idea. Among others...
This is a non-issue in general.
I guess. Every time that I can think of spirit formed servants away from their master has ended generally poorly, however. It was only extrapolated when Karima could hide indefinitely.
The reason it has generally led to issues when it is actually utilized is because of individual circumstances, not the concept itself, such as in the case you pointed out that occurred in this War. Unless there is a mechanic specifically designed around it, or Masters have some flawless and essentially unlimited way to conceal themselves, it's hard to see why it would be much of an issue.

Regardless of whether the Servant is in the same location or a different location, the Master becomes a ridiculously easy target. On that note, I'm not quite clear what massive advantage you're suggesting is gained by having the team split up while the Servant is in spirit form anyway. You do gain an information advantage by being capable of covering two locations at the same time, but it becomes even harder for the Master to prepare a defense in the event of a sudden attack, compared to being in spirit form in the same area, which already presents issues depending on the rule-set being used.

The benefit you are probably referring to most, though, is the fact that in essentially all rule-sets, Servants are invincible in spirit form. However, the survivability of the team as a whole drastically drops, since in single Servant/Master teams, the Master is then exposed. The situation becomes an issue when the Master can ignore damage or conceal himself or herself. In cases of that, however, being in spirit form in the same area is equally damaging to the balance as being in spirit form in another area.

I do not see your point.
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Psi
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My thoughts:

Vao more or less summed up the main issues; Berserker was unkillable, as was DID-san as soon as she contracted Archer. Assassin, Archer, and Uso couldn't do anything useful. And several masters had absurd damage potential - or in Ko's case, durability.

(Side note: what happened to the staff subsection? I wanted to quote some stuff from there!)
I did up a quick durability chart - Ko was first with 600+ before-reductions damage to kill, and Uso was last around 50. Other standouts were Lancer holding an absurdly high spot (just below Berserker), and Assassin, who actually ranked lower when they travelled together due to AoEs.

In terms of the game's progression, I wasn't too displeased. As always, convincing people to hit each other is hard, but there were some awesome moments. Caster jumping ship to Lancer's team, after Lancer just one-rounded her master, was the kind of unexpected excitement that made earlier wars great. Ko using Chimera, reducing his durability by over 400 points, and then dying in one round was hilariously fail.

...Well, enough prose. I like lists, too.

Favourite Master: Ko (Fabulous. In my head, he looks like Ushiromiya Lion.)
Least Favourite Master: Linnea (UGLY. I pictured her as Eva Unit 01.)
Favourite Sservant: Marisa (~da ze.)
Least Favourite Servant: Archer (Who?)
Favourite Skill: Berserker - The End (Fragile Psyche should have debuffed her, but it's a neat concept.)
Least Favourite Skill: Uso - Palpable Hatred (I don't think I paid any attention to this, not even once >.> )

Overall rating: 6 / 10
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Supremezero
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There is no such thing as society.
Psi
Jan 4 2011, 05:06 PM
Lancer holding an absurdly high spot (just below Berserker)
What? How? Defenser spam outside of Sonic?
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Vara
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Kakarot
@Youphi

And your master's Cold Link Barrier.

Sure, have at her too, but Randy will bite you over it.


@Randy

Fight-o~


@Zero

dunnolol


@Avvil/Gravy kinda

The only reason that Karima couldn't be detected anymore is because her servant was Archer, Fiddler was dead, and Berserker couldn't copy any detection abilities easily at all.
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gravy
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Try hard, camp harder
Avvil
Jan 4 2011, 04:36 PM
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 03:58 PM
Avvil
Jan 4 2011, 02:23 PM
Uroxin
Jan 4 2011, 01:51 PM
Allowing servants to exist in spirit form away from their master is such a bad idea. Among others...
This is a non-issue in general.
I guess. Every time that I can think of spirit formed servants away from their master has ended generally poorly, however. It was only extrapolated when Karima could hide indefinitely.
The reason it has generally led to issues when it is actually utilized is because of individual circumstances, not the concept itself, such as in the case you pointed out that occurred in this War. Unless there is a mechanic specifically designed around it, or Masters have some flawless and essentially unlimited way to conceal themselves, it's hard to see why it would be much of an issue.

Regardless of whether the Servant is in the same location or a different location, the Master becomes a ridiculously easy target. On that note, I'm not quite clear what massive advantage you're suggesting is gained by having the team split up while the Servant is in spirit form anyway. You do gain an information advantage by being capable of covering two locations at the same time, but it becomes even harder for the Master to prepare a defense in the event of a sudden attack, compared to being in spirit form in the same area, which already presents issues depending on the rule-set being used.

The benefit you are probably referring to most, though, is the fact that in essentially all rule-sets, Servants are invincible in spirit form. However, the survivability of the team as a whole drastically drops, since in single Servant/Master teams, the Master is then exposed. The situation becomes an issue when the Master can ignore damage or conceal himself or herself. In cases of that, however, being in spirit form in the same area is equally damaging to the balance as being in spirit form in another area.

I do not see your point.
While your points generally hold up, you're missing one large thing. Lone masters aren't generally attacked out of the blue.

Having an undetectable and invincible servant that can scout doesn't work out well at all.

Yes, it's only become a problem in very trace situations/wars (10, 15). But, intrinsically (spelled it right this time go me), it's a bad concept to even allow at the first place IMO.

However, I'll never win this so I'll just agree with you. >_> Though i do concede that it's less of a problem than I originally jumped to outside of what you conceded to.
Edited by gravy, Jan 4 2011, 11:31 PM.
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