| A crisis of faith; Disintrest in the Gods | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 20 2012, 08:21 AM (1,180 Views) | |
| Noctus Cornix | Oct 20 2012, 09:21 AM Post #11 |
|
The Nameless Monster
|
Wait... You can't blame the codex because of the writings of a bunch of newbie writers in a completely unrelated anthology book.... What happens in Black Library books has nothing to do with the codex. I'm sorry what do you want for it to do? Be 200 pages of fluff? That's not going to happen. The writer is limited to only so much space to write and chaos is the army thats the most information to cover. Of course it's going to have to generalize certain things and leave others short? And don't start that copy paste stuff, I did a side by side of both codexes. There's nothing that's copy pasted. |
![]() "Home?... Heh... We can't go home... There's a line men like us have to cross... If we're lucky... We do what's necessary then we die... No... No all I really want, Captain.... Is peace...."
| |
![]() |
|
| Excessus | Oct 20 2012, 09:49 AM Post #12 |
|
Heretic
|
Well, I can only talk about how I think and how the new codex changed my own warband. As you all know I play Alpha Legion, and I like the fluff and background a lot! A legion that specializes in spec. ops. and sneakyness, how can I not love them? Though a few things have always been annoying me, like the fact that many think that the Alpha Legion is still uncorrupted, or that after 10k years legions still operate in the exact same way they do in the HH-books. When compared with the old dex, what this new one gives us is one thing: Freedom! Freedom to mould our warband(legion or not) to whatever purpose and cause that we have designed for them. While it doesn't give as many opportunities as the 3.5 codex, it is not as limiting either...A few points: Daemon-engines are in, Forgefiends and maulerfiends seems like good concepts, and will most likely see many many battlefields, and even if you don't like the models, conversions have always been the way for chaos armies. I am absolutely adoring the few Heldrake-conversions that have already made their way onto the forums, and I believe that we will have no shortage of well-done conversions in the future! Daemon-weapons are still there. We don't have any generic daemon weapons anymore, but in all fairness, the last dex was the only dex where we had those anyway. It's more a move back towards the archaic, ancient weaponry and equipment. The flamer is a genuine relic from 10k years ago, the key is a daemonic infused artifact with reality-altering powers, the scrolls of magnus are artifacts handwritten by a PRIMARCH - loyalists would sacrifice half a chapter to get something similar to that, the Murder sword is an anatheme - an artifact from an extinct civilization imbued with enough power to lay low a primarch. Cultists are back, and there are several tactics for them to use. Bubblewrap, overwatch-eaters, extra objective holders, mobile cover...and so on. Together with the very VERY flexible marines our troop section is quite small but can be built in several different ways. For 15p a head we got mini-zerkers, or even at 13p a piece we have cheap and quite durable retinues and objective-holders that can be combined with cultists for redundancy...lots of options! Fast attack choices are actually VERY viable now. Bikers are awesome, spawn are great, raptors are good, warptalons are a bit pricy but could be made to work, and Heldrakes, although their official model is a bit "fantasyesque" I see nice conversions in the future. Heavy choices is suddenly very very cheap, AC/LC preds for 115p? AC havocs for a similar price, with 13p extra wounds. Marked oblits with "real" T5 now or 4+ invul now? I can tell you that I have dusted off my old bikers that I scarcely have used since 2nd ed and so far they are doing GREAT! ![]() The new codex gave so much to my warband, without taking anything away really... I hope you find your faith again 1000heathens! (and yeah, fastest thumbs indeed! ) |
![]() FLEA BITTEN CHAOS MOGGY!!! "Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see." "And fear what he doesn't know." | |
![]() |
|
| Kol_Saresk | Oct 20 2012, 09:51 AM Post #13 |
|
Talonmaster
|
No, I don't want 200 pages of fluff. That's what BL is for in my totally honest opinion. But here's the thing. 3.5's focus was the Legions. A rather restricted view of them in my opinion, but that was the focus. 4th was focused on Renegades. This one, well this summons up the focus. "As they explore this new freedom of possibilities, these Space Marines inevitably turn at some point to the Gods of Chaos to grant them more power to do with as they will, and from this point on, they are as doomed to walk the path of Chaos Champion as much as any Traitor from the Horus Heresy." My bad, that sentence is from the 4th edition on page 17. In the 6th on page 15, it is two sentences. They put a period after and before the words "will" and "from" respectively. But the paragraph before, the rest of this paragraph and the next to are copied and pasted. Not verbatim, but pretty dang close. Just a word here or there has been changed to a fancier version that means the exact same thing and a couple of periods were added to make it longer. But as soon as you leave that, there are no more "Renegades", simply Chaos converts. Yes, the Abyss Crusade was decent and yes, the Cleaved do go against the "one dimension" fluff I was talking about. But that's really it. The focus is mostly, daemon+man+machine and it seems like it always adds up to "Servant of Chaos" with Chaos being "The Dark Gods". It's not bad, but it's still rather restricted. We traded restricted builds for restricted fluff. That's my impression anyways. Like I said, it looks like a good Codex and at least it leaves a way out of the dead end. |
![]() ![]() "Sons of our father, stand in midnight clad. We bring the night." "This is Sevatar to the fleet. Let me be clear, brothers and sisters. I am not losing to these pious, honour-fuelled, frock-wearing whoresons twice in the same month. Focus all fire on the Invincible Reason. They crippled our primarch. Let's return the favour." -- It saw print! | |
![]() |
|
| Kol_Saresk | Oct 20 2012, 10:02 AM Post #14 |
|
Talonmaster
|
Double Post. Look, this is where I am coming from. The fluff is all I have. I don't have the gameplay. I don't have the rules. I can't look at it and say why this unit, these rules or these tactics are good. You guys can, so I'm leaving that to you. All I can do, is handle the fluff angle. It's all I've ever had for the past 8 years or so. That's it, no mroe no less. So all I can do is point out the focus of the fluff and point out that there is a back door. Excessus found that backdoor. The focus is looking one way, but doesn't have blinders, which allows us to do whatever. Like Excessus is. Like you are. Like I want to. Like Heathens was with his Reaver's thread and his Marines Malevolent. I still remember when me and -Max- did the trade-off threads with the Eye of Terror Gazette and the "Name your warband" threads. I remember how Heathens made a planet of machines, daemons, hate and anarchy that did nothing but satisfy its own needs and the Gods be damned for all they cared. The only thing I can do is hope to somehow revive that spark of creativity by attacking it from the only angle I can, by pointing out that while the fluff is only looking down one alley, Janus' other face is pointing out the back door that leads to freedom. |
![]() ![]() "Sons of our father, stand in midnight clad. We bring the night." "This is Sevatar to the fleet. Let me be clear, brothers and sisters. I am not losing to these pious, honour-fuelled, frock-wearing whoresons twice in the same month. Focus all fire on the Invincible Reason. They crippled our primarch. Let's return the favour." -- It saw print! | |
![]() |
|
| polaria | Oct 20 2012, 10:59 AM Post #15 |
|
Chaos Space Marine
|
I'll chip in my bit. I have to admit that I've never been a big fan of the Legions and the mono-god approach because, to me, it seems to be a sort of antithesis of Chaos. I mean if you look at it from the viewpoint of someone who mostly played loyalists (me) the 50 or so second founding descendants of the Ultramarines seem to be more varied and "chaotic" bunch than any of the mono-god legions who seem to be just 20000 carbon copies of the same stereotype. Now in this respect I think the new codex did a damn fine job with introducing all those new renegade groups. Where the whole chaos fluff, not just this codex, usually goes wrong IMO is that it leaves out all the middle ground. Somehow its always either full-on, holier than thou loyalist or look-I-have-a-tentacle, fully corrupt traitors. I don't know about others but I find the renegade guys who slowly get sucked deeper and deeper into Eye of Terror more interesting than black or white stereotypes. Thus I think this codex was okay, but could have been so much more. Now from rules and gameplay point of view I think this codex is great. I can finally make Tournament legal cultists and wacky machines that don't have to use "counts as dreadnought" excuse. Oh, and my Necron Empire got fully rules legal mortal cultist-followers... Edited by polaria, Oct 20 2012, 11:03 AM.
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Excessus | Oct 20 2012, 11:50 AM Post #16 |
|
Heretic
|
A Legion is like a culture. Even if the city that I live in, Malmö, is a Swedish city and ripe with Swedish culture, there are other cities in Sweden with the same culture but that does not work the same. Coming up to Stockholm, our capital, there is a completely different lifestyle...but you can see the culture below the surface of it all, shining through. If I were to move up there, I would be familiar with how things are run, but a period of adaptation would still be neccesary because they do things a bit differently than us down here. Herrings and smorgasbord all over the place man! IKEA ftw! Legions are the same, a warband from the Iron Warrior legion believes that siege warfare is where wars are won, and being a master at this is important. How they do that might be different from warband to warband, but the general ideas and beliefs would be the same. Some might use cultists to plant explosives to bring down walls, some might specialize how to bring down space fortresses, some might specialize in taking the breach or digging under the enemy fortifications. Even though you are an Iron Warrior warsmith, not everything is about big guns and artillery, because there are other ways to bring down a fortress. A legionnaire joining another IW warband than his original one might have to adapt a bit to their customs, but his culture would still be the same, he still has the same beliefs and ideas, he still wants to tear down that fortress in one way or another... A legion is an idea, a concept. A warband is a continuation of that idea and concept, made into something tangible... |
![]() FLEA BITTEN CHAOS MOGGY!!! "Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see." "And fear what he doesn't know." | |
![]() |
|
| The Madman | Oct 20 2012, 03:50 PM Post #17 |
![]()
Magos of the Tainted Forge
|
Have faith brother, for chaos rewards the committed. I have played word bearers for the past decade; and with the coming of the 6th edition book I've branched out further then I did with the 4th edition one. I now have Word bearers 57th Host - 2000pts of 'true scale' chaos marines with my daemon prince as the warlord. Word Bearers 972nd Host - 1500pts using four Dark vengeance kits and a few other bits. think dark apostle (the mace chosen) with a horde of cultists and dreadnaughts. Dark Mechanicus - i had a conversion of a Dark Magos and with the book i have decided to give my daemon engines, obliterators and the magos their own faction colour scheme. these guys will mix with my other forces when required. Warp Scions 1500pts- a new army i've started with the idea of a recently corrupted chapter, will carry mostly non-daemon units (both infantry and vehicles). Typhus Lost and Damned - Tyohus with a zombie horde and a units that the old Lost and damned list carried (spawn and Defilers) with an imperial guard detachment to bring in the Russ squadron and guard infantry. so with this book I've gone from one main army of chaos marines to four builds i really want to play/build. So it may be the Dark Apostle in me but my faith has never been stronger. EDIT: I don't know if this helps at all but i'm currently updating a project i was half-way through before 6th edition that was pretty much an expansion that gave each legion it's own additional and unique rule set with some new units and removal/upgrading of others. Edited by The Madman, Oct 20 2012, 03:53 PM.
|
![]() Click to view my blog
| |
![]() |
|
| alphariusomegon20 | Oct 20 2012, 04:53 PM Post #18 |
|
Dark Apostle
|
Well, it's all subjective. Let me give an example. Excessus and I both played Alpha Legion (well, he still does.) Excessus' viewpoint on Alpha Legion is having marked units and individuals accepting the gifts of the gods ( That's fairly condensed in a nutshell.) I think Excessus loves the new book, as it fits more in line with his viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that, and Excessus' army keeps on trucking as it always was. My personal viewpoint subscribes more to the old view of Alpha Legion. Giving the middle finger to Chaos as a concept in general, receiving no gifts, and carrying no marks. I personally can't stand the new book when it comes to AL, because they basically killed the way my army worked, as I went VERY Chosen heavy because of the Infiltrate USR, which matched my POV on AL. So I stepped back and looked at doing another Legion instead and found the Word Bearers intrigued me and was the exact opposite of what I had done with AL, along with sharing some similarities. Just a few examples: Alpha Legion gives Chaos the one finger salute, Word Bearers embrace Chaos fully as a Pantheon. Alpha Legion accepts no gifts, Word Bearers don't have that issue. Alpha Legion doesn't have marks at all, Word Bearers don't for the most part, except in certain exceptions ( Khalaxis from the Word Bearers series was dedicated to Khorne exclusively.) Alpha Legion is obvious to ally with IG, Word Bearers are obvious to ally with Daemons Do I still missed 3.5? Yes, I couldn't be happier about my switch to WB, because WB in this book feels a lot like 3.5 WB did. It's all about finding your niche in the new book. Maybe you're also due for a "legion Change"? |
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.![]()
| |
![]() |
|
| 1000heathens | Oct 20 2012, 08:18 PM Post #19 |
|
Anti-Hero
|
That's the thing, it's not even the rulesets, nor the differing views on Legions/Warbands, nor the fluff, though all have changed since 2nd ed CSM. It's just my inspiration for anything Chaos-related feels dead. Nothing out of the new book is inspiring me, which is an absolute shock to me, as a new codex and a fresh look is usually exactly what I need. I can't quite place my finger on it, but Choas just feels... out of place nowadays. Maybe it's the removal of humanity from Chaos, maybe it's the distancing of my own mindset from the newer, overpowered fluff. It's hard to say. It hurts though. I mean, hell, I still have one of my old pewter CSM's from 2nd edition... I stare at that model nowadays and ask "what happened, Bill? (yeah, his name's Bill ) We used to be so close. We once charged lines of poorly painted Ultramarines, through fields of stacked books and upside-down cups, with visions of daemonic glory running through our veins. Why have we grown apart?"Sadly, Bill never answers me. |
+++No Gods, No Masters+++
| |
![]() |
|
| alphariusomegon20 | Oct 20 2012, 09:38 PM Post #20 |
|
Dark Apostle
|
LOL you and I go back to about the same time frame. I played a mono nurgle army way then (I had a thing for throwable blight grenades), and I felt the way you did when they lost the blight grenades in 3rd. What I did in 3rd is mull around a bit until.... I found the Salamanders. I played them almost exclusively until I came back to Alpha Legion in 3.5 Maybe your situation is like mine was back then, possibly a different faction would rev up the juices again, and then you come back to Chaos?? |
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.![]()
| |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic » |
| Theme: Zeta Original | Track Topic · E-mail Topic |
8:39 AM Jul 11
|







Though a few things have always been annoying me, like the fact that many think that the Alpha Legion is still uncorrupted, or that after 10k years legions still operate in the exact same way they do in the HH-books. When compared with the old dex, what this new one gives us is one thing: Freedom! Freedom to mould our warband(legion or not) to whatever purpose and cause that we have designed for them. While it doesn't give as many opportunities as the 3.5 codex, it is not as limiting either...






8:39 AM Jul 11