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Tanking Rule Suggestion.
Topic Started: Feb 17 2010, 11:26 AM (1,035 Views)
drewst18

It has gotten pretty stupid right now. After the Wings did it last year a new trend has started. It is pretty pathetic and there has to be a way to keep the firing rule, while implementing a rule to stop the top teams from tanking. Seems like everyone in the league is trying to get their own 1st back (including me...well I was before my amazing UFA day).

Here is my proposal (feel free to offer changes to the idea);

The GM will be fired and forced to switch teams if;
- In the previous season he finished top 5 (maybe top 4 or 6 if it is better)
- The current season he drops to the bottm 5 (maybe 4 or 6) in the conference
- If this happens, a group of say 3 people will look at all the evidence for the reason for the decline, if it deemed that the team was unnecessarily tanking they will be fired.

What would evidence tanking consist of?

Tanking:
- Obviously a drastic change in standing position
- Not dressing the best possible lineup
- Sending down Star prospects to AHL/Juniors without a suitable replacement(see MAF)
- Dismantling a team poised for a cup/change in winning strategy
- Reaquiring your own 1st Round Pick
- Change in tactics to help lose


I am not a fan of tanking in any sorts of the forms. It completely ruins this game, causes bullshit, and forces a rift between the Commish and other GM's. This rule will not prevent everyone from tanking, but it will prevent the "people" who can win a cup from doing it.
Edited by drewst18, Feb 17 2010, 12:00 PM.
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Cream

The proposal seems to fit the situation. As for the selection of the review group, it may be hard to select who actually does this without causing rifts between people or others should any action have to take place. If they are cool with it, then so be it.

You would also need to determine the required amount of criteria. Will a list of 5 be generated, and all 5 have to be met, or will 3 or 4 out of 5 suffice?

1) I know I'm not trying to tank, (but as a team that held the 1st position overall last season and was accused of tanking when I traded away a certain player),but I foresee a huge drop in standings for my team this season.

2) This, again, may be somewhat hard to argue. Yeah, if you're not dressing a star forward, this would seem to fit, but I have multiple people on my depth chart that are above others, yet the lower guys are on my roster. I've seen this on other teams as well, and who is to determine what the best possible line up is for a team. People have different play styles, different preferences in player types. Address the "review group" in this criteria, at least 2 out of the 3 would most often have to have the same playstyle/player preference. Again, my team was better before i traded away vinny, jagr, heatly, but I like my team better now then before, even if I don't win. Should I really be punished for that?

3) This criteria is a solid one, at least I can't think of a suitable reason as to why you would do this. (why would a star player be in the minors, we have seen this on more then one team though!)


4) Again, see my point about number 2. I was accused of doing this when i traded away my top line. I got back quality players, but put off any chance I had of contending for at least 2-3 years IMHO. I would see this as applying to the ducks atm as well, stocked with talent, traded a good chunk of it away, but I garuntee Tran like his team now more then he did of the one he took over.

5) This criteria would really only apply if all of the other ones are in place. When did the person try to acquire the pick back? Offseason? Deadline? Draft day? There are a lot of variables to that one. I'm trying to get my pick back, doesn't mean I'm going to try and tank though.

6) Tactics are a very touchy subject when it comes to EHM imo. We still have people that will not take advice on tactics because they want to do it there own way or learn it themselves. While it may not make them a stronger team, should somebody really be faulted for this? If somebody is changing tactics half way through a winning season, maybe they are just trying to address gameplay holes they see. Again, touchy subject.


I completely understand what you're trying to do here and think it's a step in the right direction. I also understand that the idea is that a lot of these criteria would have to occur at once, I was just trying to address them individually to point out the problems I saw with them.

Regardless of what you do in this situation, it's a very tough situation to put anybody in to make that decision. The firing rule is hard enough to watch somebody lose a team that they've been with for a couple of seasons. To have somebody tell you that nope, you're purposely losing is a tough sell IMO.

In my mind, the idea itself is ok, but it has a long way to go before it has filtered out the shades of grey. Let's also not forget here that this is just a game. Start inputting all kinds of rules and that aspect of it will quickly go out the window.
Edited by Cream, Feb 17 2010, 12:49 PM.
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Karl Bean
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I'm against tanking


but just cause someone is reacquiring their pick doesn't automatically mean they are going to tank.

and there is a difference..with tanking and rebuilding. If you are going to sit all your top guys and hire pieces of shit to drop in the standings..


OKAAAY that's stupid as fuck, but if you are rebuilding and trading your stock for young guys and you just can't win. I don't think you can be punished for that. Sometimes you have to start over from scratch.

I know when I have my huge contract troubles, I'll probably start over too. And if you are going to start over, why wouldn't want your own pick.

Just because you finish in the bottom 5. doesn't mean you should be fired... unless it's obvious you are manipulating

just my thoughts on what you said drew.

Tanking:
- Obviously a drastic change in standing position sometimes you just can't win. I've been there.
- Not dressing the best possible lineup This I completely agree with
- Sending down Star prospects to AHL/Juniors without a suitable replacement(see MAF)This is just dumb
- Dismantling a team poised for a cup/change in winning strategyI think anyone has the right to change their mind about contending, if they aren't sure they can win a cup with their current roster
- Reaquiring your own 1st Round PickSame thing, if you are rebuilding, it all starts with your first, just incase you still can't compete with your new line up


As much as I'd like a no tanking rule, there will always be people tanking for the guy they want, and you've even admitted of trying to do it. :P

So, It's pretty hard and as much as I hate to say it. I'm sure J doesn't want to have to be the bad guy and tell people they are fired, if they suck for a couple years.

It's all about honesty and there is no sure fire way to stop it.


Sitting your top players for games on end and then hiring a horrible goalie, stating your current goalie can't cut it.. is stupid as shit. I think if it's that obvious.. it's up to J.. but no offense drew :P


I can't see this flying.

by the way... who has my first ;) and what team is blackburn on? hahaha




EDIT: Well said, Lloyd.
I think stastny and heater need the year off.
Edited by Karl Bean, Feb 17 2010, 12:56 PM.
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drewst18

1) It is near impossible to go from a top 4 spot in the standings to a bottom 4 spot without doing it on purpose. Obviously their are special cirumstances like you couldn't afford to keep players from the year before in FA, or a few guys retired. But that is a very large drop to happen out of the blue.

2) Were talking about not dressing a top 6 forward or a top 4 Dman. There is no reason why this should ever happen. This criteria has nothing to do with trades. Having your best players sit is black and white.

3) AGM's do this, and they do it in preseason, and rarely...but it does happen and that would have to be taken into account

4) Were not talking about trading one player. One player doesn't make a team. This one would have to be one of the background criteria as its something that happens all the time in these leagues. But if it happens with say the 1st point and getting your 1st back, its pretty clear what you are doing

5) This one is iffy as well. Some teams already have their 1st, and don't need to reaquire it. Some teams also do this just in case they fall. At the same time the teams that do that aren't top tier teams, and don't have to worry about falling so far they need their 1st. It is a dead give away that a team is planning on tanking. Case in point, I have been trying to find ways to get mine back...but realized how bad for the league it is to tank, and how I hate to lose to much.

6) This is another thing that could cause an issue (but these are only suggestions, and I just wanna see if people want a rule in place) but you can see when a team doesn't want to win.


Like I said to you Lloyd, I don't care what the rule is, but fact is we need to put an end to this. It's started and now everyone seems to want to do it, even I thought about it. It kills the integrity of the league. This would be more aimed at a preventitive measure kinda thing. We would hope that the thought of losing your team would be enough for you to not tank. If it happens that you still drop in the standings we would look into it.

We would make sure that it was certain you tanked before you were fired from your team. Ideally you would wanna stay away from a "Panel" and keep it black and white, but the idea here would be to scare cup contenders out of tanking.
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Jake
Big Time Faggot
It may surprise people to hear this, but I support a no-tanking rule. I also support JHole and JHole alone making the determination because I know that he won't let petty interpersonal horseshit cloud his judgment. I also think that limiting it to just the top 5 teams in every conference is stupid. Kisle tanked last year, and he shouldn't get a free pass for it in the future just because he hasn't ever been in the playoffs. Same with the Pens.

The game is a lot more challenging when tanking is not an option. Tanking is a very smart strategy, and that makes things much easier.
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shooter_80

Good discussion.

As most of you know, I would never tank and never think about tanking. (I am probably too competitive to lol but I like to make my team have the best performance possible every year - even if it means sneaking into the playoffs and losing 1st round)

I think a firing rule does eliminate this. When I first talked to Tran about a firing rule way back when before it was instituted in any league it was for two reasons.

1) Sometimes a GM, as hard as they try, cant put a good team together. This doesnt mean that they should have fun and play but if they were to continue to be the GM and then resign it gives the league an imbalance and make it difficult for a new GM. Now you started to see this in DM and that is why the rule was introduced. I would like to think now the teams are more balanced.

2) Yes - to prevent people from tanking. I havent seen the game fire someone unreasonably. I am sure some of you may disagree but you can generally see why they were fired by their board. This gives the challenge to GM's to ensure they are pleasing their board, game or not, as you would have to in real life.

3) We do have the last place GM, and this must be a GM who has been in place for two seasons, have to change to one of our two AI teams. This works nicely along with with the firing rule as again GM's have to have consequences for doing that poorly.

Now, I think the concept has gone zig zag since the initial idea and as we saw here in NB, GM's were more concerned about getting fired than they were about having fun and enjoying EHM. We need to eliminate that fear. In DM, the rule is their to protect the league and its integrity as well as help out newer/inexperienced/"not as knowledgeable" GM's at the same time. The rule is their in good intentions and I think GM's need to realise that.

In DM, I have used my discretion on more than one occassion and waived the rule(s). Now, there isnt any reason why we could put this type of responsibilty on J or whoever it is at any one time.

Please remember, when you are running a league, ask J or Tran, or anyone who has that experience. You know what is going on, you know who is active, you know who really is trying to succeed and maybe hasnt had success. Whether a rule is implemented that is similar to what we do in DM, which I think would be difficult because we have two AI GM's at a time, or something similar. It needs to come down to the discretion of one person - in this case J.

I truly believe it has worked in DM. The teams that are getting those top 10 picks are the teams that acquired them through trade or are the teams that REALLY need them. It is definately not because they decided to tank.
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Machinae
Greedy Draft Pick Whore
What the hell, it's not fair at all the label me as a tanker.

Up until the trade deadline I ran the best tactics and best lineup I could, even asking GMs throughout the season for tactic advice. Only after the trade deadline for the last couple of games I put my tactics to default and gave everyone in my lineup equal ice time. That's HARDLY considered tanking, seeing as I played statistically my best goalie the whole time (Crawford), and never left out any of my star players.
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Paul

Machinae
Feb 17 2010, 03:42 PM
What the hell, it's not fair at all the label me as a tanker.
I found it really funny actually :)
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jevandloo

Oh your a tanker! LOL
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Jake
Big Time Faggot
Machinae
Feb 17 2010, 03:42 PM
What the hell, it's not fair at all the label me as a tanker.

Up until the trade deadline I ran the best tactics and best lineup I could, even asking GMs throughout the season for tactic advice. Only after the trade deadline for the last couple of games I put my tactics to default and gave everyone in my lineup equal ice time. That's HARDLY considered tanking, seeing as I played statistically my best goalie the whole time (Crawford), and never left out any of my star players.
You were open about it.
Edited by Jake, Feb 17 2010, 04:38 PM.
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