Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome!

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Join our community!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
"Space Travel" on the History Channel.
Topic Started: Feb 18 2008, 03:02 AM (383 Views)
JimBob
Trolls R Us
I watched an interesting program on the History channel this evening. A portion of it was on the hazards of space travel including solar radiation, galactic cosmic radiation, zero gravity's affects on the body, and length of time of space travel to reach the destination.

One thing the contributors one the program had in common was their acknowledgment of the hazards, and the ability of humans to overcome or potentially overcome them. No where in the program did I hear "We can’t do this", it was always, "What can we do to overcome this obstacle?"

To those who think humans can not survive in space even for a few weeks at a time, did you see this show? What did you think? Thanks.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HabeasCorpse

What did they propose as shielding against Cosmic Radiation for example? I know they had deflector shields on the Enterprise which kept radiation at bay but they had a hell of a time with Klingon Disruptor's and later the evil Borg seemed to beam in and out at will.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Agent

a small area in the middle sheilded with lead and water lol

then all the pc stuff frys heh
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
look-up
Member Avatar

Was this the program that originally aired on Science Channel called "Mars Rising", a six part series? I believe part two dealt with the hazards of travelling to Mars.

It was excellent. I never realized just how difficult it will be to go there for humans. Not only do they have to survive psychological issues, keep from killing each other, radiation, loss of equipment, loss of real-time communication with loved ones and Mission control, but they will have to stay on the surface of Mars for like 5 months!

Insane!

I think we WILL acheive this, but not before we kill the first one's we send. Every aspect of the mission will have to go perfect, with every single piece of equipment performing perfect, for years at a time, in order to bring these people home.

We will definitely accidentally kill the first group. They should say goodbye to their families before they leave.

But it will be worth it. We WILL be a space-faring people one day.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
It was part of the Universe series. I have read about some of the difficulties of landing humans on Mars. Just getting there is going to be a problem. Even the shortest trip is going to require actually shielding the craft as we can not count on avoiding large solar flares like Apollo did with short trips. The ship will need shielded electronics, and a room to shelter the astronauts during solar storms. Maybe make a shielded room with a water tank.

Space medicine is going to have to come up with a method of reducing bone and muscle loss during the trip.

The Mars atmosphere is so thin that it will not slow down the craft much like Earth's atmosphere does. Since splashdown is not an option, it may need braking rockets to complement the chutes soon after they deploy. Since the Mars atmospheric envelope is so narrow, the time from re-entry, to chute deployment, to rocket assist to touchdown will be very short and the system will have to work with-in very small time margins to ensure a safe landing.

After landing, he astronauts are still not protected from radiation as the Mars magnetosphere is too weak to block particle radiation as on Earth. Astronauts will need to build underground dwellings just to survive. The Martian landscape is so barren that it was once said that human excrement is more valuable than gold. :)

But all we need to succeed is the money and the will to do it. The knowledge and skill is in our hands right now.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
Agent
Feb 18 2008, 06:36 AM
a small area in the middle sheilded with lead and water lol

then all the pc stuff frys heh
I'm sure if we can figure out a way to shield people, then the sensitive electronic hardware can be shielded too. Surely you do not think engineers are that foolish? :)

You have a problem with using lead and water as a shield? It can also be supplemented with aluminum and polyethylene.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Agent

it would be pretty heavy then wouldnt it

unless its differnt and you only need a couple inchs for shielding
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
illeagalhunter
Member Avatar

The Russians have spent 6 months in space
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ross
Member Avatar

That doesn't seem worth it to me. Die on the way to mars, just so someone else can actually make it there.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
noeffects
Member Avatar

We should just use the same equipment we went to the moon with. Nobody died. It'll be retro rocket scientology.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
noeffects
Mar 3 2008, 03:46 PM
We should just use the same equipment we went to the moon with. Nobody died. It'll be retro rocket scientology.
I do not think that will work unless you are talking about increasing the size of the craft greatly. To get to Mars will require radiation shielding much more effective than that used on Apollo. More consumables such as fuel food and water are required too. The lander will need to use something to brake in the atmosphere, so a something just like the LEM is not going to work. Wikipedia has interesting articles on trips to Mars, very educational.

There are plans to use a robot ship to transport hydrogen for making methane for the return trip. Much of what we need to live on Mars for a short time can be sent ahead on an unmanned craft. But then a very precise landing will be needed or else the astronauts will not be able to reach the supplies sent before they got there.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Agent

yeah it would have to be built in space no way they could build somin with that much shielding

wouldnt get off the ground with todays rockets
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
Agent
Mar 4 2008, 11:47 PM
yeah it would have to be built in space no way they could build somin with that much shielding

wouldnt get off the ground with todays rockets
I agree. The Saturn V rocket is very unlikely to be built again. We would be relying on the currant crop of boosters used by Russia, USA and the EU. The Mars space craft would likely consist of several modules, not all of them for habitation.

A large tank filled water and/or hydrogenous fuel would make for a very effective moderator of fast subatomic particles like protons, borated poly can be used to absorb them. Placing a layer of lead on the outside of the water tank scatters particles to make the effective thickness of the water tank larger, it also stops gamma radiation. A small layer of aluminum on the inside surface would take care of most of the secondary and capture gammas that are produced in the tank. Urine can also be recycled for re-use during the long trip. In fact if the recycling is efficient enough, then the crew could arrive with most of the water they started with.

I have read of using a generator to make a magnetic field around the spacecraft to deflect or trap charged particle radiation much like the Van Allen belts protect the Earth. The generator would weigh much less than a water/lead shield.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Q
Member Avatar
A Higher Evolution
JimBob
Feb 18 2008, 03:32 PM
Space medicine is going to have to come up with a method of reducing bone and muscle loss during the trip.
Problem solved. Go back and watch 2001: A Space Odyssey. By spinning the hull, you create "centrifugal" gravity, so normal day to day activities would keep you adequately exercised.

They even used this in Babylon 5, whereas most other fiction just relies on some miracle called "artificial gravity" to explain away why they couldn't afford to build curved sets with gravitational camera tracking.

We are already travelling in Space. Not counting the cumulative effect of planetary rotation, we are travelling approximately 50.264424 light-minutes every year around the Sun.

EDIT: Typo
Edited by Q, Mar 8 2008, 02:05 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Mar 7 2008, 10:07 AM
Problem solved. Go back and watch 2001: A Space Odyssey. By spinning the hull, you create "centrifugal" gravity, so normal day to day activities would keep you adequately exercised.
I hope it is that easy, but there are some concerns. The radius of a ship the size of the one in the 2001 movie might not be enough. The centripetal acceleration at the feet and at the head will be different. This might cause other problems. One idea is to put two equal sized modules on a long wire and set them rotating around a common center. This way you get the large radius with very little difference in acceleration on the body.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Q
Member Avatar
A Higher Evolution
JimBob
Mar 7 2008, 01:48 PM
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Mar 7 2008, 10:07 AM
Problem solved. Go back and watch 2001: A Space Odyssey. By spinning the hull, you create "centrifugal" gravity, so normal day to day activities would keep you adequately exercised.
I hope it is that easy, but there are some concerns. The radius of a ship the size of the one in the 2001 movie might not be enough. The centripetal acceleration at the feet and at the head will be different. This might cause other problems. One idea is to put two equal sized modules on a long wire and set them rotating around a common center. This way you get the large radius with very little difference in acceleration on the body.
I was thinking more of the scenes on the space station rather than on boardDiscovery.

Your idea of two halves further seperated is demonstrated by the Earth Force ships in Baylon 5.

The only problem I see, is that if you jump into the air, you will just hang there until you get hit by a passing wall, at which point you will then "fall" back to the floor down the side of the wall. Ouch, and ouch.

It would be a very similar experience to being hit in the small of the back by a cocktail party.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jim76

Zaphod Beeblebrox
Mar 8 2008, 02:20 AM
The only problem I see, is that if you jump into the air, you will just hang there until you get hit by a passing wall, at which point you will then "fall" back to the floor down the side of the wall. Ouch, and ouch.
Please tell me you're joking?!?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JimBob
Trolls R Us
jim76
Mar 8 2008, 09:39 AM
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Mar 8 2008, 02:20 AM
The only problem I see, is that if you jump into the air, you will just hang there until you get hit by a passing wall, at which point you will then "fall" back to the floor down the side of the wall. Ouch, and ouch.
Please tell me you're joking?!?
He is not joking. A space station in orbit or a spacecraft in flight is in free fall unless it is being accelerated by something other than the gravity field it is in. All of the objects inside the craft are also in free fall unless they are acted upon something.

If you are standing on the inside surface of a spinning cylinder (space station in Earth orbit), friction between your feet and the floor keeps you in one place on the floor. While your mass and the space station mass attract each other, this local gravitational force is almost nothing compared to the centripetal acceleration caused by the rotation of the space station.

If you were to step lightly off of a small stool, you would be in the same free fall as the space station and remain there in mid air until you contacted any walls inside of the space station. Then as you continued to rotate with the station again, you would be subjected to the centripetal acceleration once more and fall back to the floor (inside of the cylinder). I read a post either on JREF or Calvius.org that described the unusual behavior of a ball bounced on a rotating space station. It was very weird.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · The Lounge · Next Topic »
Add Reply