| Welcome! You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! |
| So now Al Qaeda's number 2 is making videos; from beyond the grave | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 19 2008, 01:41 PM (2,390 Views) | |
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:23 PM Post #26 |
|
Then you need to take that up with French St, not me. |
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 12:24 PM Post #27 |
|
No, my position is that your reasoning skills are absurd. |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:26 PM Post #28 |
|
Your reasoning is that since you have no evidence for these individuals existing, other than from videos, then they dont exist? Do you need to meet them in person? Edited by icepick, Nov 20 2008, 12:27 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 12:31 PM Post #29 |
|
A 'video' of a still image of a radicalextremistislamofascistterrorist speaking is not evidence of anything. |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:34 PM Post #30 |
|
Oh, so you do admit that these individuals actually existed? Thats a start. Now what evidence do you have that they have been killed? Edited by icepick, Nov 20 2008, 12:34 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 12:36 PM Post #31 |
|
what evidence do you have they are still alive? As I've said before - a still image 'video' doesn't cut it. Of course, this whole argument forgoes the whole question of 'what is Al CIA-da'? Edited by bretwalda, Nov 20 2008, 12:37 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:37 PM Post #32 |
|
But there again, as far as you are concerned, an actual video wouldnt be evidence of anything either. After all, you would simply call it a fake. Edited by icepick, Nov 20 2008, 12:37 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 12:39 PM Post #33 |
|
I see - no evidence. |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:39 PM Post #34 |
|
What evidence do you have that George Bush is still alive? Have you met him recently? Edited by icepick, Nov 20 2008, 12:40 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Lin Kuei | Nov 20 2008, 12:42 PM Post #35 |
![]()
|
what evidence do I have that you are here for honest discussion? not much... |
![]() |
|
| Travis | Nov 20 2008, 12:43 PM Post #36 |
|
Yo Ice pick, with regards to the media how do you determine what information is credible and what information is fabricated? |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:45 PM Post #37 |
|
You think that bretwelda is interested in an honest discussion? How am I supposed to prove a negative exactly? There is ZERO evidence that would satisfy bretwelda. A video would be instantly dismissed as fake. |
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 12:49 PM Post #38 |
|
You interject alot of speculation about me - all the while completely ignoring the videos I have posted right here in this thread. Ban 'im!!! |
![]() |
|
| Travis | Nov 20 2008, 12:51 PM Post #39 |
|
Yo Ice pick, with regards to the media how do you determine what information is credible and what information is fabricated? |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 12:57 PM Post #40 |
|
I dont start with the assumption that mainstream media outlets fabricate news stories. Maybe you do. Certain authoritarian govts around the world have and still do use their influence over what their state press report. Iran for example. In the free world thats far more difficult to acheive. Unless you think that all reporters are being paid off of course. Then you would need some evidence for that. |
![]() |
|
| Travis | Nov 20 2008, 01:13 PM Post #41 |
|
My question was,
I never said that the media outlets are the fabricators. Do you remember the claims that Saddam had WMD? In the UK the media reported that Saddam had the ability to attack the UK in 45 minutes which later transpired to be a fabrication created by the government. So I ask once again:
Also on what grounds do you argue that Iran's media is manipulated by the government? |
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 20 2008, 01:16 PM Post #42 |
|
I dont start with the assumption that mainstream media outlets...or the government should be trusted. Evidence evidence evidence evidence evidence Need more? I've got thousands. Ban im! Edited by bretwalda, Nov 20 2008, 01:27 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 05:44 PM Post #43 |
|
"In the UK the media reported that Saddam had the ability to attack the UK in 45 minutes which later transpired to be a fabrication created by the government." Also incorrect. The intelligence given was indeed faulty, but unless you have evidence that it was intentionally fabricated then you have nothing. The same intelligence was accepted by numerous countries across the world as being legitimate. Indeed Saddam made a point of not being clear about his countries true capabilities regarding WMDs in order to appear tough with regards to his equally unpleasant neighbours.. The only reason Iraq ended up being invaded was Saddams refusal to be transparent about the Iraqi WMDs or the lack of them. If anyone could have stopped that invasion, he could of, he chose not to. Bad choice there. |
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 05:52 PM Post #44 |
|
The funniest thing about your list is that the very journalists you accuse of being "paid off" are exactly the ones who are providing you with this information. You have just made it perfectly clear that even a minor matter of the funding of pro US propaganda abroad, is exposed very quickly. How do you think that this helps your theory that a conspiracy as huge as 9/11 wouldnt be exposed by the same journalists? Edited by icepick, Nov 20 2008, 05:54 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| icepick | Nov 20 2008, 06:01 PM Post #45 |
|
I suggest you go to Iran, join a news outlet and try posting about the govt human rights abuses and how you dont agree with their policies. Will you do that Travis? We will see how long you last before you get yourself incarcerated. Deal? |
![]() |
|
| esopxe | Nov 20 2008, 07:07 PM Post #46 |
|
I love how Ventura handles Hannity in terms of how much freedom these guys have to talk about whatever they want. Go to the 3 minute mark. How easy is it to fake a video? Pretty damn. |
![]() |
|
| 22205 | Nov 20 2008, 07:31 PM Post #47 |
|
Arlingtonian
|
JAN 13,2006 Pakistani Military Sources Say Zawahiri May Be Dead Forensic Tests to Reveal Fate of al Qaeda No. 2 http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1504096 Today, according to Pakistani military sources, U.S. aircraft attacked a compound known to be frequented by high-level al Qaeda operatives. Pakistani officials tell ABC News that al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant, may have been among them. U.S. intelligence for the last few days indicated that Zawahiri might have been in the location or about to arrive, although there is still no confirmation from U.S. officials that he was among the victims. But Pakistani officials tell ABC News that five of those killed were high-level al Qaeda figures, and their bodies are now undergoing forensic tests for positive identification. Officials say Zawahiri was known to have used safe houses in this area last winter and was believed to be in the area again this winter. Zawahiri, who appeared just last week in a new videotaped message, had increasingly been taking the operational reins of al Qaeda, and is thought by U.S. officials to be the current true mastermind of the terrorist group. Pakistani officials tell ABC News that the bodies of the five suspected al Qaeda figures will be recovered at first light in Pakistan, but it will still take a day or two for any kind of positive identification. U.S. officials in Washington did not comment. JAN 14,2006 U.S. Aircraft Targeted al Qaeda Leader Forensic Tests to Reveal Fate of Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda's Number Two http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1505588 U.S. officials say a massive air strike in Pakistan Friday targeted al Qaeda's second in command using unmanned Predator aircraft and military jets based in Afghanistan. The strike was based on CIA information that Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant, was at the location or about to arrive. This morning, CIA officials remained optimistic about the strike, but there still has been no confirmation that Zawahiri was among those killed at the scene. However, Pakistani officials now have told the Associated Press they have information that Zawahiri was not at the scene, though it's not clear how they know that. U.S. officials tell ABC News the bodies were badly burned in the attack, and they have obtained tissues samples that will be flown to Washington for a possible DNA match. JAN 16,2006 Ground View: Journalists Struggle To Get The Lowdown in Danger Zone Air Strike Appears to Blow Away Post-Quake, Pro-U.S. Sentiment http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1510848 Western journalists reporting on the war on terror from Pakistan have an unenviable task. No one really wants us to get the full picture. American and Pakistani spy efforts are shrouded in cloak and dagger: they don't wish their enemy to know exactly what they're ever up to. Al Qaeda also needs to veil its activities to survive. Air Strike Debacle So who was killed last Friday in the American air strike on a village in the tribal belt? Our local team that traveled there got good information, still, I wonder if we'll ever really know. No one is quite sure of the location of five bodies -- men apparently attending a high-level Al Qaeda meeting. Even if the corpses are located, will DNA tests prove anything? Was Osama bin Laden's right-hand man and spiritual adviser Ayman al Zawahiri there? Was Mullah Omar, the reclusive leader of the Taliban of Afghanistan, present? Maybe it was just a group of cousins and some informant to the CIA had a grudge against them. January 17, 2006 U.S. Aircraft Targeted al Qaeda Leader The Insider: Daily Investigative Report By THE ABCNEWS INVESTIGATIVE UNIT http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1514102&page=1 INVESTIGATIONS Pakistan U.S. Aircraft Targeted al Qaeda Leader U.S. officials say a massive air strike in Pakistan Friday targeted al Qaeda's second in command using unmanned Predator aircraft and military jets based in Afghanistan. (ABC News) Officials: U.S. Unsure Of Al Zawahiri Fate U.S. intelligence officials say they are trying to determine whether Osama bin Laden's top lieutenant was attending a dinner in a remote Pakistani village and whether he was one of the people killed by a CIA airstrike. (CNN) Pakistan: 4 or 5 Terrorists Died in Strike At least four foreign terrorists died in the purported U.S. airstrike aimed at al-Qaida's No. 2 leader in a Pakistani border village, the provincial government said Tuesday. (AP) Pakistan Warning Over US Strike Pakistani Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz has said his country cannot accept actions like the recent US air strike on a village that killed 18 people. (BBC) within less than a week, Zawahiri's story is reduced to a blurb: Jan. 18, 2006 and Jan. 19, 2006 U.S. Strike Killed Al Qaeda Bomb Maker Terror Big Also Trained 'Shoe Bomber,' Moussaoui By HABIBULLAH KHAN and BRIAN ROSS http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1517986 As for Zawahiri, U.S. and Pakistani officials agree that it is still possible but increasingly unlikely that he was killed. If he is alive, he has lost many of those close to him, however. and then a new angle is introduced: Jan. 20, 2006 New Tape -- How Effective Is the al Qaeda Propaganda Machine? Speaker in Newly Released Tape Discusses 'Jihad Poet,' Reads Verses http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1526614 An audio recording appeared today on a radical Islamist Web site, but the new tape does not appear to be new at all. The tape features what appeared to be Osama bin Laden's top deputy, Ayman al Zawahri, and it raises the question of why al Queida felt compelled to pass off an old tape as new. It surfaced a week after a U.S. airstrike in Pakistan that killed a top al Qaeda bomb maker and chemical weapons expert, but the speaker does not mention the incident. Analysts say that's potentially revealing, because it calls into question al Qaeda's ability to respond quickly in its propaganda war. ABC News analyst Alexis Debat believes it may be a sign of desperation and suggests that perhaps Zawahiri was injured or killed, or at the very least on the run and unable to make a new tape. Related PHOTOS: Al Qaeda Most Wanted In the recording, the speaker also talks about how he was affected by the poetry of Moheb Allah al Kandahari, whom he refers to as the "jihad poet." He also reads verses of the poetry during the 17-minute tape. Kandahari's works were initially written to mourn people who had died in the war in Afghanistan. "We cannot say that this audio is new," said Fares Bin Hizam, an expert on Islamic affairs for the Arab TV network al Arabiya. He said it could be a tactical move by Zawahri's followers to draw media attention. There is no connection, he says, between Thursday's release of a new bin Laden speech and this audiotape. The last time Zawahri was heard from was in a video aired by al Jazeera on Jan. 6. In that recording, bin Laden's No. 2 man called on President Bush to "admit defeat in Iraq" and said any future U.S. troop withdrawal would be a "victory" for Islam. "Bush, you must admit that you have been defeated in Iraq and that you are being defeated in Afghanistan and that you will soon be defeated in Palestine, with the help and strength of God," said Zawahri in that videotape, sitting with an assault rifle at his side. The audio tape comes a day after a new audio tape from Osama bin Laden himself. It appears to have been made recently. That tape threatens new attacks inside the US but also offers a truce. The new bin Laden tape adds new urgency to the hunt for al Qaeda leaders, and new urgency to the question: Why can't the US find the man it wants to kill most? Jan. 20, 2006 Why Isn't Bin Laden Caught, 'Dead or Alive?' Al Qaeda Chief May Have Found a Sanctuary in Remote Pakistan http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Terrorism/story?id=1525570 A former senior officer of the U.S. Special Forces, who spoke to ABC News on condition that his identity be concealed and his voice disguised, said one reason for the failure to decapitate al Qaeda was that the U.S. military bureaucracy got in the way. "We can't act quickly enough," the officer said. "And that is a geographic or a structural problem, but it's also a bureaucratic problem because you got too many layers." He added that top al Qaeda leaders and other so-called high-value targets -- such as al Qaeda No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahiri and Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar -- had been spotted since Sept. 11. "Zawahiri and Mullah Omar, in separate instances, were observed going into a certain location," the officer said. "This is what we call actionable intelligence. And there were conventional Special Forces teams in the area." i leftoff here due to time constraints: http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=zawahiri&from=40&to=49&type=feature but feel free to follow the saga on your own... |
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 21 2008, 12:05 AM Post #48 |
|
Very quicky? Lolz. No need to be a dolt. We know facts here - you might want brush up on some yourself. Reading the preceding post by 22205 might be a good start. The funniest thing about your reply is that the very evidence you demand is the very evidence you dismiss. You're showing your brilliance.
It has been exposed by journalists, but unfortunately from a narrowly conceived perception of 'reality' such as yours, all journalists are telepathically and synergistically connected via their craft and are therefore one and the same. Now that, along with a dude on the run lugging a dialysis machine around the Hindi Kush for 7 years and scheming how he might destroy us cuz he 'hates our freedom' - is conspiracy theory. Edited by bretwalda, Nov 21 2008, 12:10 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| bretwalda | Nov 21 2008, 12:41 AM Post #49 |
|
Good Lord. And they're still drinking the Kool-aid on this one!...
Honestly, were you of coherent age when the occupation started? "There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction." -Hans Blix So what defines transparency for you? 701 inspections? 4,201? But anyway, no matter how many inspections would have taken place, guess what? There was no WMD's. Doh! Obviously you've never heard of Powell or Tenet - cuz guess what - they knew the Niger 'yellowcake' (lolz) line of crap was bogus - they've since said so themselves. Here's some more things for you to look up icepickle - yellowcake is not WMD. It's kinda like poop in the world of uranium. Sounds like something you should be very afraid about though doesn't it? Especially in your conspiracy basement of third world leaders hating our freedoms. Yikes! Did Sadam ever have WMD's? Well of course silly - we all know that. This might have been before your time but the pitch man that brokered that deal is still kicking it hero style for sheeple such as yourself, thanks to some twit-headed mantras and ideas he came up with in the early years of W's reign: ![]() - Suskind's book on Paul O' Neil and his 19,000 documents from the Whitehouse. March 5, 2001, Pentagon memo: "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield contracts... Edited by bretwalda, Nov 21 2008, 01:22 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Travis | Nov 21 2008, 01:29 PM Post #50 |
|
Icepick your below statement is symbolic of your overall failure to investigate events with the aim of establishing the truth.
Many have termed the Iraq war (2003) as an intelligence failure; however, the evidence suggests it was not an intelligence failure but rather a foreign policy triumph, in the sense policy was able to transform the intelligence. The ‘official’ reasons that the US invaded Iraq were because of the threat posed by the Iraqi regimes WMD, and the connection the regime had with bin Laden. However, the initial intelligence refuted both of these claims. Pfiffner (2007) reports that as early as 2002 the C.I.A discredited information linking Saddam to Osama Bin Laden. He adds this provoked the US government to use the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group, created shortly after 9/11, ‘to provide alternative analytic perspectives to those being produced by the CIA’ (pg 229). Paul Pillar who was the national intelligence officer for the Middle East, and was responsible for coordinating all of the intelligence community’s assessments regarding Iraq supports Pfiffner’s claim. Pillar (2006) argues that the US government ignored all the intelligence that indicated that the Iraqi regime did not have WMD and links to bin Laden. Rather they manipulated the intelligence to fit a preconceived objective, namely the invasion of Iraq. He further suggests that ‘it has become clear that official intelligence analysis was not relied on in making even the most significant decisions to national security decisions…’ (pg15). In the same manner Gill and Phythian argue that ‘Intelligence certainly seems to have followed the policy agenda, rather than vice versa’ (pg 135). Gill and Phythian support their claim by citing transcripts from both US and UK sources, which identify a desire to attack Iraq as early as September 2001. Chomsky (2004) also argues that the war was not about WMD but rather over oil and the expansion of US dominance in the regime. In a similar manner Mearsheimer and Walt (2007) suggest the war was not about WMD or global terrorism, but add that the war was inspired and carried out in response to the demands made by the Israel Lobby. Chomsky N, (2004) Hegemony or survival. London: Penguin Gill P. and Phythian M. (2007) Intelligence in an insecure world. UK: Polity Press Mearsheimer, J and Walt, S. (2007) The Israel lobby and US foreign policy. London: Penguin Pfiffner P. (2007) ‘Intelligence and decision making before the war with Iraq’. In: Edwards G. C. and D.S. King (eds.) The polarized presidency of George w. Bush London: Oxford university press. pp. 213-242 Pillar P. R. 2006 ‘Intelligence, policy and the war in Iraq’ Foreign Affairs, vol 85 no.2 pp. 15-27. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The Lounge · Next Topic » |









7:54 PM Jul 10