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| The UAW, the Democrats, and the Bailout; bad policy | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 17 2008, 10:48 AM (232 Views) | |
| Andoo Inc. | Nov 17 2008, 10:48 AM Post #1 |
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Sir finds a lot
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http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/11/uaw-democrats-and-bailout.html The UAW, the Democrats, and the Bailout There is an ugly alliance between the Democrats and the Unions. I believe it is at the heart of the Democrat's push for a bailout to Detroit's big three. A representative of the UAW just finished up an interview with Megyn Kendall on Fox News. The rep insisted that the automakers were vital to the American economy. He said that GM's structure meant that thousands of employees, suppliers, as well as the entire state of Michigan would be crushed if the automakers were allowed to fail. There were some stunning numbers that ran across the screen as the interview went on. First, the average hourly rate paid by General Motors per car is $71 per hour. For Toyota, that number is $41 per hour. The health care costs associated with the manufacture of automobiles is ten times as much for GM as it is for Toyota. This has everything to do with the lucrative contracts the UAW (United Auto Workers) negotiated. Furthermore, Ford currently pays 12000 people no longer working $31 per hour. Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits. "We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat." Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union. The jobs bank programs were the price the industry paid in the 1980s to win UAW support for controversial efforts to boost productivity through increased automation and more flexible manufacturing. Here is how the UAW President characterized the bailout. NLPC says the UAW wants additional taxpayer money to enrich health and retirement plans it controls. Indeed, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger has urged Congress to act immediately to provide a separate, additional $25 billion in loans so auto companies can meet their health care obligations to more than 780,000 retirees and dependents. The over funded health care and retirement plans are one of the main reasons the automakers are failing. The UAW wants this bailout but they won't give at all on the health care and retirement plans of their workers. As such, the bailout will continue to fund the health care and retirement plans of their workers even though both of these are contributing directly to the hemorrhaging of the liquidity of the company. In other words, if the big three get this bailout, but the retirement and health care plans aren't re negotiated, then the three companies will still be on a path to failure. At the same time, the members of the UAW will continue to get paid. As such, what this bailout will do is go to fund the workers of the big three. It goes without saying that there has long been an alliance between the unions and the Democrats. Furthermore, one of the few pieces of President Obama's infomercial that I saw had then Senator Obama telling a retired autoworker that he had earned that pension and thus implicitly that a President Obama would do everything in his power to make sure that each and every worker got their earned pension and health care benefits. This bailout as it stands now would do just that for a few years more at least. In fact, the only thing this bailout would do is guarantee that the tens of thousand of auto workers and retirees will continue for an indefinite time to receive the benefits negotiated for them by the UAW. Unfortunately, that's all it does. With the Democrats lead by President Obama pushing this bailout, it appears to be nothing more than a blatant pay back to its biggest constituency. It's being done with $25 billion of our own tax payer's money. Posted by mike volpe at 6:33 AM I honestly can't believe we will most likely give them a bailout. Our economy is in no way headed in a right direction if this necessity to fill stereotypes of American culture continues. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Nov 17 2008, 11:13 AM Post #2 |
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Sir finds a lot
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http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D94GNV9G0.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_news+%2B+analysis http://edgehopper.com/what-toyota-knows-that-gm-doesnt/ http://audos.blogspot.com/2008/11/without-bailout-of-big-three-3-million.html Edited by Andoo Inc., Nov 17 2008, 11:21 AM.
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| hiphopopotamus | Nov 17 2008, 03:14 PM Post #3 |
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The bailout of the American car companies is actually a good thing. The economics of depression differ from that of normal times. In normal times if the car companies can't adapt they die. No big loss, some unemployment for a while until new/different industries pick up the workers. Except in a recession, the worst since the great depression, the loss of those jobs would be a major blow to the economy. Some 2.5 million domestic jobs (in one way or another) depend on the American car companies, and to suddenly have that many unemployed people would be a terrible terrible thing. Those people will be unemployed for who knows how long, and the decreased consumption of such a large group of people (when seen combined with the Keynesian multiplier) is a huge loss in GDP at an already troubled time. If we look at this from a historical perspective, good things have come from bailing out the American auto industry in the past. When the government bailed out Chrysler, not only did they come back from the brink, they become hugely successful domestically and abroad. If we bail them out now, and they still can't compete when we're out of this crisis, letting them die won't be such a terrible thing. But letting them die in a crisis would be very terrible. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Nov 17 2008, 03:22 PM Post #4 |
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Sir finds a lot
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That won't fix their problem of bad union monetary policies. They need to change their corporate motto before they take the money to the bank just to stay the course. |
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| hiphopopotamus | Nov 17 2008, 05:06 PM Post #5 |
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That is totally true, but you don't let some relatively minor issues come in the way of preventing a huge loss to our economy. They just need to set up some stipulations, and if they aren't reformed over the course of the next few years let them die. |
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| datman | Nov 17 2008, 07:06 PM Post #6 |
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well the unions may be part of the problem but they are not biggest part, that would be MANAGEMENT. I love how the numbers get added up. Nobody tells the whole truth. Not the right not the left not even us. Everyone tell the part of the truth that enforces their side leaving out details that may not be so convincing. I don't have any exact figures but speaking as a union carpenter, the $71 per hour is the total package wages, healthcare ,retirement and I bet the cost of unemployment insurance added in. I know UAW workers at a Ford plant in Illinois they $21-22 per hour on the check. Some jobs may pay more and it was a couple of years ago when I was told this. They should make that and the should have healthcare and retirement. So before everyone in the nation stated blaming the unions remember it's the same corporate owned media that would love to see all the unions get busted up. Smaller pieces of the pie for some means bigger pieces for others it works both ways. All most people care about is their piece of the pie. |
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| hiphopopotamus | Nov 17 2008, 08:37 PM Post #7 |
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While I do support most unions, I do not support the UAW. Their inability to see that auto building, in today's market, is a relatively low skill and low wage job, has cost the auto corporations millions that foreign firms have not had to pay their workers. That is not to say the unions are solely at fault, the management is equally (if not more) the root of their current issues by banking on cheap oil for perpetuity (and putting out gas guzzlers). |
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| datman | Nov 18 2008, 05:46 PM Post #8 |
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A union auto worker builds what ever kind of car he is told to build. I also think some unions go to far but if it were not for unions many of us would not have healthcare or retirement myself included. Everyone here does know that nobody make $71 per hour on the check. Maybe low 30s. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Nov 18 2008, 06:38 PM Post #9 |
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Sir finds a lot
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http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/16/uaw-head-says-that-unions-arent-to-blame-for-detroits-problems/ It was an eh article, but the comments are pretty solid spot on. Honestly I have wondered for some time why the workers at Toyota can get by with about half the healthcare. I've been surrounded by cars my whole life and it's not the quality of the car that sells, they pretty much all get sold if it runs without many problems and isn't butt ugly. It's sad when management sucks and companies start to fail, but why do we have bail them out. I don't understand how a company that chapter 11's that biotch and restructures its company to rebuild a solid reputation for better assets unlike http://finance.google.com/finance?fstype=bi&q=NYSE:F Would the restructuring of these companies be better than just taking billions away from everyone. People all over are feeling the crunch, I would just rather see good business like I've seen in the past than this. Considering I come from a family that runs a car business successfully, you have to be able to work with the customers and repo them if they aren't making payments. We have enough fun when people take a bad housing mortgage they can't pay for and then for some reason think it's a good idea to get a newer car. Honestly this whole mess is just rank with the smell of the American Dream. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Nov 18 2008, 09:59 PM Post #10 |
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Sir finds a lot
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this is coming from ron paul Action Alert After the Paulson $700 billion bailout package passed in early October, we knew it was only a matter of time before Congress moved to use your money yet again to bail out a struggling industry. Now, a vote to give funds to the "Big 3" auto manufactures, GM, Ford, and Chrysler, is likely to come up in the Senate tomorrow. Call your Senators today and ask them to oppose bailing out the auto industry, whether with funds from TARP, revisions of previous loans, or any new grants. To find the information for your Senators, click on our "States" page and look for your state. Phone numbers and links to contact forms can be found near the bottom of each state's page. We have included recommended letters at the end of this email to send your Senator. The ultimate fate of the auto industry bailout remains uncertain, and it is crucial that we contact our Senators today and urge them to stick to the Constitution and free market principles. Please also consider making a donation to Campaign for Liberty today to aid us in our efforts to fight big government policies at the local, state, and federal levels. Together, we will achieve our goals of reclaiming our Republic and restoring our Constitution. In Liberty, John Tate President Campaign for Liberty ********************** Letter #1 Dear Senator (Name), I urge you to oppose any bailout of the auto industry, whether by taking existing funds from TARP, revising any previous loans, or making new grants. The auto industry is lobbying hard for taxpayer money when they should be entirely focused on restructuring their companies and recouping their losses. There is no guarantee that a government handout will have any positive effect, and that GM, Ford, and Chrysler will not be back in a few months asking for additional billions. Since a bailout will only delay the economic consequences of the Big 3's current predicaments, Congress should allow the market to work so that the fallout can be dealt with and overcome as quickly as possible. Instead of handing out more of the taxpayers' money and moving further away from the free market ideas that made America great, I ask you to: 1.) Curb regulation: The auto industry is already one of the most heavily-regulated industries, and a bailout will bring more government regulation and additional costs. Alleviating even a little of the red tape would free up resources for them to address their financial situations, save jobs, and produce quality products to jump-start sales. 2.) Cut taxes: Cutting corporate and capital gains taxes would give these companies immediate funds to put toward their problems. Cutting individual income taxes would return much needed money to workers and consumers, strengthening their financial positions and purchasing power during these turbulent times. Taking just these two steps will save the industry far more in the long run than the numbers currently being proposed for the bailout. Additionally, because the Paulson TARP plan has abandoned its originally stated purpose of buying toxic assets, is not holding up its promises to be transparent, and has not been properly accountable to Congress, no further expenditures should be authorized until the Treasury Department presents a full accounting to Congress of how it has already dispersed TARP funds. Since the election, Republicans have talked of returning to their limited government message. This is a chance for you to prove your commitment to free market capitalism and the freedom philosophy by demonstrating that the Republican Party will be worthy of our trust in the next Congress. A vote for another bailout will send the signal that, despite any lip-service paid to limited government principles, Republican talking points of defending them are cheap and little more than campaign rhetoric. The answers to our economic problems cannot be found in further government intervention. As your constituent, I urge you not to put my tax dollars on the line and to vote "no" on the auto industry bailout. Sincerely, ********************** Letter #2 Dear Senator (Name), I urge you to oppose any bailout of the auto industry, whether by taking existing funds from TARP, revising any previous loans, or making new grants. The auto industry is lobbying hard for taxpayer money when they should be entirely focused on restructuring their companies and recouping their losses. There is no guarantee that a government handout will have any positive effect, and that GM, Ford, and Chrysler will not be back in a few months asking for additional billions. Since a bailout will only delay the economic consequences of the Big 3's current predicaments, Congress should allow the market to work so that the fallout can be dealt with and overcome as quickly as possible. Instead of handing out more of the taxpayers' money and moving further away from the free market ideas that made America great, I ask you to: 1.) Curb regulation: The auto industry is already one of the most heavily-regulated industries, and a bailout will bring more government regulation and additional costs. Alleviating even a little of the red tape would free up resources for them to address their financial situations, save jobs, and produce quality products to jumpstart sales. 2.) Cut taxes: Cutting corporate and capital gains taxes would give these companies immediate funds to put toward their problems. Cutting individual income taxes would return much needed money to workers and consumers, strengthening their financial positions and purchasing power during these turbulent times. Taking just these two steps will save the industry far more in the long run than the numbers currently being proposed for the bailout. Additionally, because the Paulson TARP plan has abandoned its originally stated purpose of buying toxic assets, is not holding up its promises to be transparent, and has not been properly accountable to Congress, no further expenditures should be authorized until the Treasury Department presents a full accounting to Congress of how it has already dispersed TARP funds. The answers to our economic problems cannot be found in further government intervention. As your constituent, I urge you not to put my tax dollars on the line and to vote "no" on the auto industry bailout. Sincerely, |
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| hiphopopotamus | Nov 19 2008, 02:30 AM Post #11 |
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Not bailing out the auto industry is a terrible idea right now. We're in a recession, and on the verge of a financial collapse the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Great Depression. Do you really think 2.5 million people losing their jobs is the smartest thing when we're facing such a terrible happening? The economics of a depression differ from that of a normal period. While 7 years ago the loss of the big three would be marginally bad for our economy, it would be a fucking disaster now. Lower taxes and deregulation will not pull us out of this mess. Nor were regulation and taxes the cause of their demise. |
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