self confessed sceptic

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self confessed sceptic
Topic Started: Feb 7 2008, 02:20 PM (633 Views)
Bernie big shorts	Feb 7 2008, 02:20 PM Post #1
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Hi All, I come with good intentions. I'm not a troll. I havent come to insult anyone or disrupt your community. I've been fascinated by conspiracies for many years, i'm hoping i can have respectful conversation and good natured debate. I'd like to be welcome in the lounge for conversation even though i'm a self confessed sceptic. I first got into conspiracies through my love for Bill Hicks, this inspired me to read up on JFK and various other conspiracies, however i do find it hard to believe that 911 was an inside job for many reasons, but i'm willing to change my views if i can hear convincing arguments. All the best, Bernie
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Lin Kuei	Feb 7 2008, 02:26 PM Post #2
Posts: 1,297 Group: Admins Member #5 Joined: 12/22/07	Bernie big shorts Feb 7 2008, 02:20 PM however i do find it hard to believe that 911 was an inside job for many reasons, but i'm willing to change my views if i can hear convincing arguments. watch Loose Change Final Cut
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 7 2008, 02:43 PM Post #3
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	I've seen it. Its really well made with lots of interesting stuff but i cant understand how the inside job would work. Edited by Bernie big shorts, Feb 7 2008, 02:46 PM.
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look-up	Feb 7 2008, 03:59 PM Post #4
Posts: 1,642 Group: Admins Member #63 Joined: 01/15/08	bernie, with respect (since you have shown us the same) I would say that an inability to fully understand the scope of the event, and how it must have been done, does NOT take away from your ability to look at single pieces of evidence and determine what did NOT happen on 9/11. For instance, Loose Change mostly stays away from concluding anything in particular, except that we still don't have answers to the most damning questions, and it seems very suspicious that these answers are not forthcoming. If you look at flight 93 for example. There are many reasons to think that the crater is faked. And really no reasons to think it is real. It doesn't matter if you know how that fits into the overall operation, or how many people it might have taken to create the fake crater, cover-up evidence etc... What matters is that through evaluating the evidence of that crater, it is conclusively fake. Once you have concluded such a thing, it makes it necessary to then at least question the rest of the evidence for 9/11. Sherlock Holmes is credited with a great line from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's novels. "Once you have eliminated the impossible", the crater for instance, "whatever is left, no matter how improbably, must be the truth." Regarding your interest in other conspiracy theories... let me just say that this is how I first became interested as well. Specifically, I started looking into the UFO phenomenon very closely. I discovered that while many of the sightings may be fake, or very difficult to prove, that there are at least three or more instances where sightings can verifiably be proven NOT to be of known earthly origin. That is not to say that they are certainly E.T., but that they are certainly not known aircraft, birds, weather balloons, or other weather phenomenon. These things are also often reported by very well respected military officials from around the world. The people who are trusted with nuclear launch codes and things of that nature. Calling them all "kooks" for instance, is not a very good argument to make. So I would just suggest that you not lump all conspiracy theories together in the "unbelievable" bin, and consider that throughout history, countless conspiracies have been proven. Many times those conspiracies even involved U.S. government agencies. People begin investigating 9/11 with the mindset that "this cna't be true, because I can't believe that my leaders would do this." Well, that is certainly how I first opposed these alternative narratives, but what I soon realized is that... Loose change does not say for certain that the Operation Northwoods document PROVES 9/11 was an inside job. What they are saying (not in so many words) is that because this has been conceived in the past, it is certainly possible that someone within the government COULD HAVE conceived of the 9/11 plot. Again, it's not about proof so much as it is about overcoming the resistance to the thought process that is necessary for reconsidering the causes of 9/11. Then and only then can one actually view the evidence with an open mind.
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Stundie	Feb 8 2008, 08:27 AM Post #5
Posts: 888 Group: Members Member #78 Joined: 01/16/08	Bernie big shorts Feb 7 2008, 02:20 PM Hi All, I come with good intentions. I'm not a troll. I havent come to insult anyone or disrupt your community. I've been fascinated by conspiracies for many years, i'm hoping i can have respectful conversation and good natured debate. I'd like to be welcome in the lounge for conversation even though i'm a self confessed sceptic. I first got into conspiracies through my love for Bill Hicks, this inspired me to read up on JFK and various other conspiracies, however i do find it hard to believe that 911 was an inside job for many reasons, but i'm willing to change my views if i can hear convincing arguments. All the best, Bernie Hi Bernie Big Shorts, Welcome to the forum. You do not have to believe in the 9/11 conspiracy, as long as you believe it was possible. i.e. If you think it was impossible, then no amount of evidence, proof or witnesses would convince you otherwise and we would be wasting our time. There is plenty of info around and to be honest, nobody is 100% sure as to what really happened surrounding all the events on 9/11. Hence the reason you will find all, if not most conspiracy theorists (I actually hate using that term but it's better than truthers!) support a full investigation. Its all about researching and coming to your own conclusions. I hope to see you around the forums. Cheers Stundie
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Ross	Feb 8 2008, 08:53 AM Post #6
Posts: 50 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: 01/16/08	So I guess I can start by asking what are the many reasons you don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. Be specific. : X Edited by Ross, Feb 8 2008, 08:53 AM.
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 9 2008, 01:49 PM Post #7
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	look-up Feb 7 2008, 03:59 PM Hi Look-up, Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you about not putting all conspiracies in the 'unbelievable bin'. It is undoubtedly true that conspiracies have happened in the past and will happen again in the future. I have an open mind and examine all theories carefully. Quote: If you look at flight 93 for example. There are many reasons to think that the crater is faked. And really no reasons to think it is real. I dont agree with this though. Do you really think there are 'no' reasons to think it's real? Sure, there are some odd features, like little visible wreckage from the photographs but the explanations for this seem pretty logical. The angle of the crash meant that the debris was thrown into the adjacent forest, some was imbedded in the soft earth and the 5% they didnt recover may have been lost or vapourized in the explosion. There are first responders who have discussed finding body parts. Quote: it is certainly possible that someone within the government COULD HAVE conceived of the 9/11 plot. I agree, it is possible they could have conceived the plot. I'm looking for evidence that they have.
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 9 2008, 01:53 PM Post #8
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Hi Stundie, Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you that its possible that 911 could be an inside job. I just need evidence to convince me.
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08


Bernie big shorts	Feb 9 2008, 02:08 PM Post #9
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Ross Feb 8 2008, 08:53 AM So I guess I can start by asking what are the many reasons you don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. Be specific. : X Ross, I guess it all depends on what the theory is. I disagree with no plane in NY because of the witnesses, i disagree with no plane at the pentagon for the same reason, i disagree with no plane at shanksville for the crash scene witnesses, I disagree that WTC7 being a CD because the fire fighters stories of the damage to the building. The most convincing theory i've heard is LIHOP but i would need a whistle blower for me to believe it.
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Sureshot	Feb 9 2008, 07:03 PM Post #10
Your glorious Loose Change Forum dictator... Posts: 415 Group: Admins Member #1 Joined: 12/21/07	Welcome to the forum, We welcome skeptics with open arms, as long as you show mutual respect. I appreciate your open mind. We don't get that often.



Stundie	Feb 11 2008, 06:05 PM Post #11
Posts: 888 Group: Members Member #78 Joined: 01/16/08	Bernie big shorts Feb 9 2008, 01:53 PM Hi Stundie, Thanks for the welcome. I agree with you that its possible that 911 could be an inside job. I just need evidence to convince me. Hi Bernie Big Shorts, I'm glad to hear it! As I said, if you believe there is no possibility, then we would be wasting both of our time. If you look at all the evidence honestly, you will see where it leads. Of course we all need evidence to be convinced, I was sceptical over the CTer claims too once and there are lot of them out there, some of them are spot on, others are just plain wacky! The same goes for debunking too and even though there is some good debunking of these claims, some of them are not debunkable though. Even the best CT or OT theory needs to be able to account for all the evidence to convince you and as long as you take that into account, you can soon spot the good from the rubbish. Anyway, I'll hope to see you around the forums. Cheers Stundie
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rawn	Feb 12 2008, 01:29 AM Post #12
Posts: 15 Group: Members Member #155 Joined: 01/20/08	If you follow the money you will see the same people/corporations coming up everywhere. you might want to watch alex jones ENDGAME and/or One Nation Under Siege @ video.google.com
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Ross	Feb 14 2008, 09:38 AM Post #13
Posts: 50 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: 01/16/08	Hi again bernie, I have some favorited youtube videos that may help you on your research. Here's one that shows molten metal spewing out of a tower.(you probably know why that's relevant) http://youtube.com/watch?v=9_isa-nfb6Y Here's one that talks about the wtc7 countdown that apparently took place. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jlxw9TZ_0Cc Edited by Ross, Feb 14 2008, 09:39 AM.
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Agent	Feb 19 2008, 07:48 AM Post #14
Posts: 84 Group: Members Member #111 Joined: 01/17/08	all one has to do is find a copy of the Towers falling down and put it in slow motion you see 100s of explosions going off
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 19 2008, 12:33 PM Post #15
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Agent Feb 19 2008, 07:48 AM all one has to do is find a copy of the Towers falling down and put it in slow motion you see 100s of explosions going off Hi Agent, What you see as explosions are happening after the building has started to collapse so they are clearly not causing the collapse. The people who survived in the 'miracle of stairwell b' recall the conditions inside the building as being like like a hurricane, so the windows being blown through air pressure is the most logical explanation for what look like demolition squibs. Cheers, Bernie Edited by Bernie big shorts, Feb 20 2008, 11:50 AM.
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Roxdog	Feb 19 2008, 05:24 PM Post #16
Posts: 597 Group: Members Member #80 Joined: 01/16/08	Many of Bill's friends believe it, and I think Bill would believe the same if he were alive today. It isn't that difficult once you look into it....
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Agent	Feb 20 2008, 06:21 AM Post #17
Posts: 84 Group: Members Member #111 Joined: 01/17/08	Bernie big shorts Feb 19 2008, 12:33 PM Agent Feb 19 2008, 07:48 AM all one has to do is find a copy of the Towers falling down and put it in slow motion you see 100s of explosions going off Hi Agent, What you see as explosions are happening after the building has started to collapse so they are clearly not causing the collapse. The people who survived in the 'miracle of stairwell b' recall the conditions inside the building as being like like a hurricane, so the windows being blown throught air pressure is the most logical explanation for what look like demolition squibs. Cheers, Bernie did i say squibs? huh? nope... i said explosions you know balls of light
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 20 2008, 11:56 AM Post #18
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Roxdog Feb 19 2008, 05:24 PM Many of Bill's friends believe it, and I think Bill would believe the same if he were alive today. It isn't that difficult once you look into it.... Hi Roxdog, The more i look into it the less likely i find the idea of an inside job. I think its plausible that Bill Hicks would be a truther if he were alive, but as much as i still love the man i dont agree with him on everything just a lot of things. Bernie
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Bernie big shorts	Feb 20 2008, 12:02 PM Post #19
Posts: 224 Group: Members Member #287 Joined: 02/07/08	Agent Feb 20 2008, 06:21 AM Bernie big shorts Feb 19 2008, 12:33 PM Agent Feb 19 2008, 07:48 AM all one has to do is find a copy of the Towers falling down and put it in slow motion you see 100s of explosions going off Hi Agent, What you see as explosions are happening after the building has started to collapse so they are clearly not causing the collapse. The people who survived in the 'miracle of stairwell b' recall the conditions inside the building as being like like a hurricane, so the windows being blown throught air pressure is the most logical explanation for what look like demolition squibs. Cheers, Bernie did i say squibs? huh? nope... i said explosions you know balls of light Agent, I see no convincing evidence that these balls of light are explosions. Bernie
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Roxdog	Feb 20 2008, 03:51 PM Post #20
Posts: 597 Group: Members Member #80 Joined: 01/16/08	Quote: The more i look into it the less likely i find the idea of an inside job. Honestly...it doesn't sound like you have really looked into anything. Almost every piece of information points towards inside job. All of it. WTC7 was blown up. This is simply truth. Nothing you say about it to the contrary can be taken seriously in light of the fact that the govt cannot even tell you why it fell... Writing things off with not even quasi-plausible explanations isn't a very effective way to get answers to questions that have been ignored by the establishment for over half a decade.... What else have you looked into? Have you looked into the OKC bombing? It is PROVEN that that was an inside job. Have you looked into that? The parallels between it and 9/11 are hard to ignore...
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Aldo Marquis CIT	Feb 20 2008, 04:39 PM Post #21
Posts: 1,649 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	Hi Bernie, It's been proven. I can tell you've been lurking and I am sure you are aware of our evidence. The witnesses all place the plane on the north side of the Citgo. They stand by the placement of the plane and would testify in court if needed. Click the CIT link in my sig to watch the interviews. It is conclusive. Edited by Aldo Marquis CIT, Feb 20 2008, 04:40 PM.
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Agent	Feb 21 2008, 07:40 AM Post #22
Posts: 84 Group: Members Member #111 Joined: 01/17/08	Bernie big shorts Feb 20 2008, 12:02 PM Agent Feb 20 2008, 06:21 AM Bernie big shorts Feb 19 2008, 12:33 PM Agent Feb 19 2008, 07:48 AM all one has to do is find a copy of the Towers falling down and put it in slow motion you see 100s of explosions going off Hi Agent, What you see as explosions are happening after the building has started to collapse so they are clearly not causing the collapse. The people who survived in the 'miracle of stairwell b' recall the conditions inside the building as being like like a hurricane, so the windows being blown throught air pressure is the most logical explanation for what look like demolition squibs. Cheers, Bernie did i say squibs? huh? nope... i said explosions you know balls of light Agent, I see no convincing evidence that these balls of light are explosions. Bernie then i recomend having a 4th of july party this july buy some fire crackers EL OH EL by the way i smell HORSE SHIT SMELLY HORSE SHIT no1 can look at the lava flowing out of the towers and say o thats normal even my neo con warmonger nuke all muslims cousin belives 911 was an inside job thanks to the thermate
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