Fake Firefighters and Military at the Pentagon

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Fake Firefighters and Military at the Pentagon
Topic Started: Oct 8 2008, 01:53 PM (1,305 Views)
Shoestring	Oct 8 2008, 01:53 PM Post #1
Posts: 55 Group: Members Member #45 Joined: 01/15/08	Here's my latest blog entry with some interesting new information about events at the Pentagon following the attack there on 9/11. The original blog posting is here: http://shoestring911.blogspot.com/2008/10/fake-firefighters-and-military.html Fake Firefighters and Military Imposters at the Pentagon After 9/11 Several entries in the Complete 9/11 Timeline (copied below) describe what appear to have been individuals disguised as firefighters or military personnel, who were involved in the rescue and recovery efforts at the Pentagon following the attack there on September 11, 2001. What these individuals were doing is unknown, but possibilities need to be investigated, such as whether they were there to tamper with, plant, or remove evidence. That this may have been the case is given weight by the fact that some people who appeared to be members of the military were witnessed stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon. Fairly early on in the firefighting operation at the Pentagon, what appeared to be a crew of firefighters was seen behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. An Arlington County firefighter working on the building's second floor witnessed the crew walking past burning fires, apparently to get to fires elsewhere in the building. But, as authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman have pointed out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you." Then, on September 12, the Defense Protective Service (DPS), which guards the Pentagon, arrested three people at the Pentagon who were dressed as firefighters, but were not firefighters. Beginning that same day, a couple of firefighters involved in the recovery effort were repeatedly assisted by a mysterious man who appeared to work for the military, but who wore no identifying badge and was known to them only as "Johnny." This man said if the firefighters needed anything from the military, he could help them, and even introduced them to some friends of his who said they worked for Special Forces. But on the evening of September 14, Johnny suddenly disappeared. When the two firefighters asked around, they found that no one at the Pentagon knew who "Johnny" was, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort said he worked for them. The two firefighters started to wonder if he'd been an imposter who'd perhaps managed to gain access to the site before security had been tightened there. The presence of these fake personnel raises the question of why they were at the Pentagon. Were these men just "thrill seekers," as the chief of the DPS has claimed, there for their own misguided reasons? Or could they have been at the site for a more sinister purpose, perhaps as part of a coordinated operation to plant or remove evidence from the crime scene? This latter possibility has some evidence to support it. Shortly after the attack occurred, DPS officer Lt. Robbie Turner saw people apparently stealing plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. Turner has recalled, "We had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway." Another DPS officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., worked during the afternoon and evening of 9/11 at the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit. He has recalled that, in that time, "We had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence." FAKE FIREFIGHTERS (Between 11:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001: Mystery Firefighters Seen Behaving Oddly inside Pentagon A mysterious fire crew is witnessed inside the Pentagon, behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] Chad Stamps is a firefighter with Rescue 104 of the Arlington County Fire Department. [National Fire and Rescue, 5/2002] Along with his crew, he has been fighting fires on the second floor of the Pentagon's outer E Ring. With fires burning around him, he is astonished to see another crew walk past, carrying two packs of hose line, apparently on its way to fight fires elsewhere in the Pentagon. Describing this incident, authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will point out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you. Yet there they went." Seeing the crew passing by, Stamps thinks, "This is totally disjointed." [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] The odd behavior of this crew is perhaps notable because there is at least one reported incident of fake firefighters being caught at the Pentagon following the attack there: On September 12, three people will be arrested who are not firefighters, yet who are dressed in firefighting gear (see September 12, 2001). [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170] September 12, 2001: People Disguised as Firefighters Arrested at Pentagon The Defense Protective Service (DPS)--the law enforcement agency that guards the Pentagon--arrests three people at the Pentagon who are dressed in firefighting gear but are not firefighters. Further details of who these people are and why they are at the Pentagon are unstated. John Jester, the chief of the DPS, later reflects: "When you have a major event, certain people are like moths around a light bulb. They come to the scene as thrill seekers." Reportedly, incident command, DPS, and FBI officials are worried by the "absence of an effective identification system to control the large number of people that [are passing] through the outer perimeter fence to support firefighting and recovery operations" at the Pentagon. [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170] MILITARY IMPOSTER September 12-14, 2001: Apparently Fake Military Official Helps with Pentagon Recovery, then Disappears A mysterious man, who is initially assumed to be working for the military, assists firefighters involved in the Pentagon recovery efforts, but then disappears without trace and is thought to have been an impostor who had managed to slip inside the Pentagon grounds. "Johnny" - Arlington firefighter Bob Gray is introduced by his colleague Bobby Beer to a man wearing a hard hat. Beer introduces the man only as "Johnny," and adds, "He's our go-between with PenRen [the Pentagon Renovation Program], and he knows some of the military guys too." Although "Johnny" is not wearing any identifying badge or ID, he seems knowledgeable, appears "taut and serious, with a purposeful military stance," and even introduces Gray and Beer to a couple of friends of his who say they work for Special Forces. Johnny says if Gray and Beer need anything from the military, he can help. As a security perimeter has now been set up around the crash site, Gray assumes Johnny must be there officially. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 367-368] Disappears - Johnny turns out to be very helpful and assists Gray and Beer repeatedly. But, on the evening of September 14, he suddenly disappears. Gray and Beer ask around, but no one at the Pentagon seems to know exactly who Johnny is or what his last name is, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort say he worked for them. Johnny's disappearance appears to follow an error he had made after firefighters discovered two bodies inside the Pentagon's E Ring. Johnny mistakenly called the truck used to remove bodies to the temporary morgue prematurely, before FBI agents had the chance to photograph and document the remains. Gray and Beer start to wonder if Johnny in fact had no official standing, and was an impostor. Clearance - According to authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman, "It wasn't unusual at high-profile crime scenes for law-enforcement pretenders to show up and insinuate themselves into the work." Johnny would have required "some kind of clearance to get through the concentric security perimeters that sprung up around the building--unless he'd been inside the wire before security tightened. It was possible that he had wandered in at the very beginning and simply stayed--there was enough food, water, and basic support on the scene to survive for days. Somebody who was determined enough to sleep inside one of the tents, or even on the grass, could easily have bypassed security." Tighter Security - However, the FBI has now become stricter about security, and is ushering out volunteers and scrutinizing anyone without airtight credentials. Gray and Beer conclude that Johnny may have come to the attention of the FBI when he called the body truck, leading agents to inquire who he was, and this could have prompted his disappearance from the Pentagon. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 416-418] STEALING EVIDENCE (After 10:15 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Police See People, Including Military Personnel, Stealing Debris from Pentagon Crash Site Two Pentagon police officers see people--some of them members of the military--stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon. After the Pentagon was hit, Lt. Robbie Turner had been helping the injured at a triage area. When, at around 10:15 a.m., reports are received of a possible second plane heading for the Pentagon (see (10:15 a.m.-10:38 a.m.) September 11, 2001), he sets about evacuating people away from there. As this is going on, he later recalls: "[W]e had to try to collect up evidence, as much of the evidence as we possibly could. Take pictures of it or whatever." However, some people are apparently trying to steal plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. According to Turner, "[W]e had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway as we were running away." [Library of Congress, 12/3/2001] Later on in the day, around 3:00 p.m., another Pentagon police officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., is called to the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit, and remains there for the next 13 hours. He will recall that, during this time, "we had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence." He does not specify who these people are, or what this "evidence" is that is being stolen and vandalized. [Library of Congress, 11/30/2001]
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noeffects	Oct 8 2008, 02:21 PM Post #2
Posts: 797 Group: Members Member #178 Joined: 01/22/08	this doesn't suprise me at all... i wonder if anyone can find a "looter" of a plane part. Any legal way of finding out the imposter firemens names or were they released ?
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Shoestring	Oct 8 2008, 02:38 PM Post #3
Posts: 55 Group: Members Member #45 Joined: 01/15/08	noeffects Oct 8 2008, 02:21 PM Any legal way of finding out the imposter firemens names or were they released ? I haven't been able to find any more details about these firefighters other than what I've included above, unfortunately. Yet again, this shows why we need a proper investigation of 9/11.
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Aldo Marquis CIT	Oct 8 2008, 04:13 PM Post #4
Posts: 1,641 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	Very interesting, Shoestring. I'll pass this onto Craig.
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trust_nobody	Oct 9 2008, 06:16 PM Post #5
Posts: 9 Group: Members Member #884 Joined: 10/08/08	The true identity of these individuals will never be known. Its obvious an infiltration team making sure there is no evidence or how much there actually is. These people then report back to whom ever with analysis of the on goings and so forth. However this is highly interesting.
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Lin Kuei	Oct 13 2008, 03:40 AM Post #6
Posts: 1,290 Group: Admins Member #5 Joined: 12/22/07	excellent research, shoestring - your work never ceases to further people's understanding of 9/11. [edit to add] who knows if people 'interfering' with the scenes were limited to the pentagon site? Remember this curious individual in the vicinity of the WTC, with an interesting comment? I'm not accusing this guy of anything, he could be a legitimate military officer (of foreign origin)... but did anybody ever identify that patch? This guy, on the other hand, was obviously in place for certain reasons... "I witnessed both towers collapse, one first and then the second, mostly due to structural failure because the fire was just too intense." Edited by Lin Kuei, Oct 13 2008, 11:02 AM.
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Miragememories	Oct 13 2008, 06:58 AM Post #7
Posts: 739 Group: Members Member #40 Joined: 01/15/08	At the WTC there were also reports of 'special' people unexpectedly showing up and involving themselves in activities. From Firefighter James Curran's interview Dec.30, 2001. "So the first shaking [WTC1] couldn't have been the plane hitting Tower Two. No we were on the 16th floor when it was confirmed that another plane hit Tower Two. At that point, someone that was supposedly Secret Service who disappeared, we never knew where he went, said there was a third incoming flight." MM
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Miragememories	Oct 13 2008, 10:41 AM Post #8
Posts: 739 Group: Members Member #40 Joined: 01/15/08	Firefighter Thomas Gaby: Interview Date: October 23, 2001 "Army was there at that point, too. I don't know how much after, [2nd collapse, WTC1] but there was Army there. That was after the second building I remember. The Army was there because Steve told a general that this is what happened, this is where our Chief of Department was, and they had a couple of bulldozers going there already." Question: "Already?" Firefighter Thomas Gaby: "Yes. There were a couple of bulldozers going there. So, basically, I guess, wherever they got them from, they started picking up some of the rubble...." MM Edited by Miragememories, Oct 13 2008, 10:42 AM.
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DoYouEverWonder	Oct 13 2008, 02:43 PM Post #9
Posts: 428 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	In the meantime, the response at the crash site in Shankesville is even more absurd. Is this all they send out to a major passenger jet crash? An antique fire engine? Retired Attack 604-2 1978 Dodge Mini Pumper made by Pierce. 400gpm 250 gallons water. Still owned by the company. http://www.stoystownfire.com/retiredapparatus.htm
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arie	Oct 13 2008, 03:31 PM Post #10
Posts: 8 Group: Members Member #814 Joined: 08/25/08	Quote: Remember this curious individual in the vicinity of the WTC, with an interesting comment? Turns out that clip was from 9/13. I made a blog about it on 911blogger; I went through all the ABC mpegs from the 9/11 archive and located the 'foreign soldier clip'. It was broadcasted on the 13th of september, sandwiched between two clips that are clearly not from 9/11. I just want to get this info out, before this clip starts a life on its own, just like the cameraplanet footage of a fireman saying 'there's abomb in the building, start clearing out', which was about a bomb threat in a high school, not in a WTC building. Here's the link to archive.org: http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109131818-1900 at 25:17 minutes This is the patch the soldier has on its shoulder: US ARMY 42nd INFANTRY DIVISION SUBDUED http://militarybest.com/usar42indivs.html The 42nd Infantry Division was indeed in New York: http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/postnews/blizzard/blizzard_archives/news.asp?id=3&issuedate=10-7-2004 Quote: Leaders unveil 9-11 ‘Never Forget’ flag Soldiers of the 42nd Infantry Division task force, known as Task Force Liberty, momentarily paused from their deployment preparations Sept. 11 to remember the tragic events of three years ago. Part of the division ceremony at Fort Drum included a presentation to the command of the 9-11 remembrance flag, depicting the 42nd Infantry Division’s new motto, “Never Forget.” “We stand here today, three years after that terrible day, to remember the sacrifice and devotion of so many Rainbow Soldiers,” said Maj. Gen. Joseph Taluto, 42nd Infantry Division commander, to the more than 100 assembled Soldiers. Soldiers from the Rainbow Division were among the first military responders at the World Trade Center site on Sept. 11, 2001. The division would later assume command and control of the entire New York National Guard joint task force for response and recovery in lower Manhattan. The National Guard response in New York City would reach more than 1,800 Soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines in the days and weeks following the attacks. http://www.911blogger.com/node/8980
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Lin Kuei	Oct 14 2008, 01:23 AM Post #11
Posts: 1,290 Group: Admins Member #5 Joined: 12/22/07	arie Oct 13 2008, 03:31 PM I just want to get this info out, before this clip starts a life on its own, ah right... thanks for clearing that up arie
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Shoestring	Oct 14 2008, 01:41 PM Post #12
Posts: 55 Group: Members Member #45 Joined: 01/15/08	I wondered if the firefighter called "Miller" in this clip might have been an imposter, simply dressed in firefighting gear: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XImQ6a-VrnA He seemed to have pretty clear foreknowledge that WTC 7 was going to collapse.
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Miragememories	Oct 14 2008, 01:54 PM Post #13
Posts: 739 Group: Members Member #40 Joined: 01/15/08	Shoestring Oct 14 2008, 01:41 PM I wondered if the firefighter called "Miller" in this clip might have been an imposter, simply dressed in firefighting gear: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XImQ6a-VrnA He seemed to have pretty clear foreknowledge that WTC 7 was going to collapse. It's not much to go on, but quick check of the NY Times firefighter transcripts doesn't show any Miller. MM
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hamba	Feb 4 2009, 05:45 AM Post #14
Posts: 49 Group: Skeptics Member #387 Joined: 03/09/08	Just curious why would the DPS arrest fellow conspirators. The DPS had to be in on it. How else could people plant body parts, plane pieces etc without them being in on it? It doesn't make sense to me. Can someone explain why they would arrest their friends? Really seems ilogical to arrest the guys who are in on the plot with you. Surely they would jepordise the whole mission by arresting their friends? Why couldn't they fake decent firefighter documents? They were able to fake a hell of alot of other more complicated stuff, like DNA etc. So surely firefighter credentials wouldn't have been too much of an issue? Surely the conspirators would have told DPS not to arrest their henchmen? Does this make sense?
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swingdangler	Feb 6 2009, 01:06 PM Post #15
Posts: 20 Group: Members Member #737 Joined: 07/14/08	Fake Firefighters in the WTC North Basement? Edward McCabe-Engineer a. Location: refergeration plant sub level 4. b. He feels a shifting of the building c. 30 seconds later,I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant. Seconds later through the smoke came people who worked beyond that door for the construction company.they were all secretaries,they walked like zombies not speaking I can smell their burnt flesh.one was bleeding pretty bad and i started to walk her to path train station across the plant. 1 woman seemed unharmed and i asked her what happened..she told me a bomb blew up their offices.when we got to the PATH platform i layed the woman down ,she thanked me,and i returned to the blown door to see if i could find anyone else.Sure enough there were more,.the smoke was being sucked up the shaft now and i can see there were no longer any walls just rubble.1 woman was under her desk refusing to come out.after a little coaxing she came and at this point a few of my colleuges,were sifting through the rubble,trying to find anybody .we did about 3 trips .everyone was out.i returned to the plant and called for ems on the radio(walky talky),I couldn't get through there was chaos on the radio.I switched on the am radio we had in the plant to the all news station and heard "ONCE AGAIN A PLANE HAS HIT THE 86FLOOR OF ONE WORLD TRADE CENTER"i started running towards the area where we had brought the injured when i see about 9 fire men running my way.they approached me an asked "where are we getting all these people from." I told them over there pointing about 25yards away to the staircase with the blown door.they asked me to show them exactly where and I told them "there is no one left lets get the hell outta here",they told me to calm down and lead them to the offices beyond the blown door.I said "ok lets do this " so we start running for the stairs as we started to ascend the lights went out just the little exit signs over the doors were illuminated.I started to panic .(I found out later on the lights were lost when the second plane hit.)not one of the firemen had a freakin flashlight ,I couldn't believe it ,i guess in all this chaos they forgot them.the firemen in charge said to me,"wait here we will be right back",and just like that they all ran back the way they came .Not 1 of them stayed behind.I stood there at the bottom of those stairs scared shitless ,in the dark ,listening to the eery sound of the smoke sucking up that elevator shaft.Maybe a minute passed when I said to myself "what am I a fuckin' idiot."and proceeded to run past the area where we brought the injured in path station,EMS was taking care of them and for that i was thankful.I noticed the owner of the deli/restaurant bar was locking himself in . I guess to guard from looters.the escalator leading up to the concourse level was (believe it or not )running.AT this point i stopped and rode the escalator up. Catching my breath,when i reached the top I noticed everyone was evacuating in a calm and orderly fashion.I started to feel a little more at ease.i ran up another out of order escalator to the plaza level and started running towards daylight i noticed debris coming down.as I got closer I realized there were people hitting the ground exploding on impact among office furniture and luggage i was sickened by the sight.I waited for a lull and ran for it out the doors to the open air it was chaos fire engines all over people screaming.i looked up and saw both towers on fire,i couldn't believe my eyes .people were jumping ,I saw a couple holding hands freefalling from at least the 90 -95th floors.I ran to broadway and watched from there i still was in shock,when over the walky talky my supervisor makes a general announcement "all WTC mechanical personnel rally at the pump station".I start running back towards the pump station which is up the block across from 1 wtc.as i pass 1wtc people are still hitting the ground ,i'll never forget the sound. when i arrive everyones hugging and happy to see each other .i lean up against the wall and slide down on my ass and look up at the towers burning people still jumping. i will finish this some other time i'm emotionally drained just writing this..God Bless. Edward McCabe, Story #936, The September 11 Digital Archive, 25 July 2002 Brief Summary: Astute readers of the above commentary who examine the source, will notice I left out the description of the fireball and jet fuel in the above account. I did this not due to dishonesty, but for the simple fact Edward was TOLD this to him by somebody after the event. In fact he states, "I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion." Not his words mind you, but someone who TOLD him the excuse that he repeats in his account. Not only that he doesn't report a fireball or secondary fires in the doorway but does describe destroyed walls and rubble. So he was not a witness to a fireball or jet fuel that was ignited by a spark. Second he describes white smoke exiting a stairwell, not black smoke as produced by burning jet fuel. Another female victim believes a bomb blew up in their office, resulting in the injury of secretaries. He mentions that the lights went out , but again learns later it was the second impact. He also mentions no smoke or fire when he arrives on the Concourse level where people are exiting in an orderly fashion. The one thing I find very disturbing is his encounter with 9 firemen in sub level 4. Although we are unaware of the exact time Edward encounters them, we know it is shortly after the plane strike as announced by the radio according to his account. The firemen ask Edward where all of the people (secretaries) are coming from and he directs them to the offices beyond the destroyed doorway. All of the sudden the lights go out, leaving only the exit signs illuminated. None of the firemen have a flashlight and the firemen in charge tells Edward to "wait here, we'll be right back". All 9 firemen run off in the opposite direction from which they came. My question is, how did 9 firemen get to sub level 4 so quickly after the impact and what were they doing down there? Why did they tell Edward to "wait right here, we'll be right back" but do not return?Many people who support the official story would like to know how explosive devices were planted in the building? Was it via a delivery truck? Or were explosives placed or prepared to detonate by the terrorists? I'm not implicating anyone with this next statement nor would I implicate firefighters and I state this because some will twist my words. But could terrorists have posed as firefighters in order to help facilitate the detonation of a device in the World Trade Center: North Tower basement? Could they have been the people who kept telling survivors of the basement blast that it was a fireball from jet fuel that caused the explosion, the damage, and the injuries, and not an explosive device? If anyone could point me to a source, preferably from the Port Authority Transcripts or Firefighter transcripts to confirm the presence of 9 firemen in the basement level 4 shortly after impact, I would greatly appreciate it and it would put my mind to ease. Source: Do The Orders Still Stand?
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hamba	Feb 9 2009, 03:28 AM Post #16
Posts: 49 Group: Skeptics Member #387 Joined: 03/09/08	swingdangler Feb 6 2009, 01:06 PM My question is, how did 9 firemen get to sub level 4 so quickly after the impact and what were they doing down there? Why did they tell Edward to "wait right here, we'll be right back" but do not return?Many people who support the official story would like to know how explosive devices were planted in the building? Was it via a delivery truck? Or were explosives placed or prepared to detonate by the terrorists? I'm not implicating anyone with this next statement nor would I implicate firefighters and I state this because some will twist my words. But could terrorists have posed as firefighters in order to help facilitate the detonation of a device in the World Trade Center: North Tower basement? Could they have been the people who kept telling survivors of the basement blast that it was a fireball from jet fuel that caused the explosion, the damage, and the injuries, and not an explosive device? Why would they need to go into the basement? What logical purpose does it serve? How did they get the device in there? When did they get it in there? How big was it? How big would it have to be to make a difference? The bomb in '93 didn't make much of a difference, why would this one?
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DoYouEverWonder	Feb 9 2009, 10:27 AM Post #17
Posts: 428 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	Quote: Why would they need to go into the basement? What logical purpose does it serve? The sublevels had to be destroyed in order to bring the Towers down completely. Otherwise, they would have ended up with 30 - 40 floors left standing and they certainly didn't want to do that. The clean up would have been much more dangerous and taken years to accomplish if the buildings were only partially destroyed. Quote: How did they get the device in there? When did they get it in there? That was the easy part. The Towers had freight elevators that were designed so you could drive a vehicle into from street level. They were large enough that vehicles as big as a step van could easily fit inside. Each building had one freight elevator that ran from the sublevels to the top floors, so you could drive a vehicle into the elevator and access any floor you wished. The best and safest time to do this would have been the morning of the attack, reducing the risk of anyone finding any vehicles that delivered the bombs. Quote: How big was it? How big would it have to be to make a difference? Depends on what they used. Apparently, they were big enough. Nukes are quite small in comparison to the amount of damage they can do. Quote: The bomb in '93 didn't make much of a difference, why would this one? The 1993 bombing was a test run. From this they learned exactly how much damage, x amount of explosives would do to the sublevels. From there it was fairly basic math, to figure out how much you would need to do a much bigger area.
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DoYouEverWonder	Feb 9 2009, 11:18 AM Post #18
Posts: 428 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	You know, you don't see very many fireman wearing eyeglasses? This picture just struck me has odd. This pic was taken on the north side of WTC 7. There's a few more pics at the link for context. - http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/1192993/1/#new
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NK-44	Feb 9 2009, 02:41 PM Post #19
Posts: 160 Group: Members Member #16 Joined: 01/14/08	Quote: Why would they need to go into the basement? What logical purpose does it serve? How did they get the device in there? When did they get it in there? How big was it? How big would it have to be to make a difference? The bomb in '93 didn't make much of a difference, why would this one? I'm not claiming that the firefighters Swingdangler spoke of were part of anything else but fighting fires. But I am convinced that there were bombs in the basement, though I don't think their purpose was to pre-weaken the structure. Instead, I think the bombs were necessary to carry out the demolition for other reasons. Mainly, to prevent effective firefighting efforts. Please see my article on the basement explosions from the old LCFhere. Since then, I've learned a lot adding to my conviction of explosives in the basement. I (now) know that the post in the old forum contains some minor errors and shortcomings, but it's still worthy to check it out and learn something new.
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DoYouEverWonder	Feb 19 2009, 02:50 PM Post #20
Posts: 428 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	hamba Feb 9 2009, 03:28 AM swingdangler Feb 6 2009, 01:06 PM My question is, how did 9 firemen get to sub level 4 so quickly after the impact and what were they doing down there? Why did they tell Edward to "wait right here, we'll be right back" but do not return?Many people who support the official story would like to know how explosive devices were planted in the building? Was it via a delivery truck? Or were explosives placed or prepared to detonate by the terrorists? I'm not implicating anyone with this next statement nor would I implicate firefighters and I state this because some will twist my words. But could terrorists have posed as firefighters in order to help facilitate the detonation of a device in the World Trade Center: North Tower basement? Could they have been the people who kept telling survivors of the basement blast that it was a fireball from jet fuel that caused the explosion, the damage, and the injuries, and not an explosive device? Why would they need to go into the basement? What logical purpose does it serve? How did they get the device in there? When did they get it in there? How big was it? How big would it have to be to make a difference? The bomb in '93 didn't make much of a difference, why would this one? Another reason to go to the basement, even if there weren't any fires down there, would be to get to the electrical and mechanical equipment. Firemen don't like live wires. Plus they would be trying to find out which elevators they could use or get running, Things like that. I know Oreo Palmer was able to take an elevator to the 1st Sky Lobby. That was one of the reasons why he made it so high up before the collapse. Also, they had potential major problems evacuating the subways, parking lots and shopping malls. Edited by DoYouEverWonder, Feb 19 2009, 02:52 PM.
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JawsInc	Feb 27 2009, 02:02 PM Post #21
Posts: 47 Group: Members Member #1,025 Joined: 01/18/09	DoYouEverWonder Feb 9 2009, 10:27 AM That was the easy part. The Towers had freight elevators that were designed so you could drive a vehicle into from street level. They were large enough that vehicles as big as a step van could easily fit inside. Each building had one freight elevator that ran from the sublevels to the top floors, so you could drive a vehicle into the elevator and access any floor you wished. The best and safest time to do this would have been the morning of the attack, reducing the risk of anyone finding any vehicles that delivered the bombs. Those huge freight elevators are very common in Manhattan. I have been in many of them from my experience working for a recording/live sound rental and delivery company in midtown. Also, I worked at a recording studio that actually had 2 of them so I was in them everyday. The one was big enough for a panel van to drive in with room to spare. The other one could probably fit a small car easily. Edited by JawsInc, Feb 27 2009, 02:03 PM.
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JawsInc	Feb 27 2009, 02:20 PM Post #22
Posts: 47 Group: Members Member #1,025 Joined: 01/18/09	shoestring Edited by JawsInc, Feb 27 2009, 02:31 PM.
Posts: 47 Group: Members Member #1,025 Joined: 01/18/09


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