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| Abortion | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 23 2008, 04:05 PM (2,186 Views) | |
| Roxdog | Jan 23 2008, 04:05 PM Post #1 |
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Since this appears to be the appropriate forum for "current politics", I can't see why this issue cannot be discussed here. I am of the persuasion that unborn babies have inherent, constitutional rights, just like you and I. I once believed abortion was a "right" but after waking up to certain information and studying common law and the Constitution, I have concluded that abortion is wrong. I believe adults have more than enough information to prevent unwanted pregnancies and should in turn take responsibility for one if it does indeed occur. Demand for adoption exceeds demand for abortion. There are organizations that will pay couples or single mothers to give their children up for adoption. What are your thoughts? |
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| Roxdog | Jan 23 2008, 04:12 PM Post #2 |
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/23/MN9KUJQ75.DTL&type=politics Interesting read...
Edited by Roxdog, Jan 23 2008, 04:13 PM.
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| alexvegas | Jan 23 2008, 08:59 PM Post #3 |
alex25smash
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Rox, why did you only do your trademark cut and paste quotation critique on some of my posts on the previous abortion discussion, and not others? |
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| Roxdog | Jan 23 2008, 09:57 PM Post #4 |
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Not sure what you are talking about. I responded to everyone. |
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| look-up | Jan 24 2008, 10:22 AM Post #5 |
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I agree. I have been on both sides of the fence on this issue, and I keep eventually coming back to the pro-life side. It is a matter of right and wrong. The baby didn't decide to be born. The mother usually decides to have sex. In cases of rape or insest, I think we should still give the little bugger a chance at life. If it has a shitty life, at least we can say we tried, which is certainly virtuous. Killing babies because they might have a defect due to insest, or if they are known to have abnormalities, is only a small step away from forced sterilization of "untouchables" and then later massive eugenics policies. Yes, women have a right to choose. They have a right to choose right or wrong. They do NOT have a right to choose for another. The constitution exists to protect the weak from the strong. In this case, the unborn from the mature. That being said, we should all have a right to end our OWN lives. Ending another's life because you don't know how you'll be able to care for that life, is simply unacceptable. So many roses have grown out of the concrete. So many unwanted children have come to have wonderful lives, and contributed considerably to our civilization. So many handicapped children have either lived fulfilling lives, or shown others the true meaning of life. That is CARING FOR OTHERS. If we cease to care for the weak and those without a voice, then we very literally cease to be part of humanity. For such a thing, we would deserve no mercy from ANYONE. Edited by look-up, Jan 24 2008, 10:34 AM.
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 10:44 AM Post #6 |
Sir finds a lot
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who says we aren't in hell. I would suggest reading up on the ancient studies of abortion. It's not as simple as a 100 year dilemma. It is much harder to understand when you factor in that animals perform abortions themselves. It really is just to big of a subject for a human to completely understand. It's life and death. |
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| Roxdog | Jan 24 2008, 12:13 PM Post #7 |
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Family. Friends. The singing birds. My dog's wagging tail. A well made-cheeseburger. Music. The forest and rivers. The sun shining into my office onto my face....etc...etc..
Any links or books or anything at all you can point us too?
Which animals? Why should we set the standards of humanity around that of wild animals? Animals rarely take care of their elderly. So, should we follow their example on that as well? I'm really looking forward to hearing about animals performing abortions....
Um, why? What is so perplexing about it?
Right. I know. This is my point. Edited by Roxdog, Jan 24 2008, 12:14 PM.
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 12:50 PM Post #8 |
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Sir finds a lot
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Roxdog I understand your passion, but don't feel the need to critique my every word for it is useless. You can join read some of the peoples responses to abortion and killing newborns. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071229021412AAhmaFu here is the history of abortions simply put on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion and even though they don't take care of their elders we slaughter them by the millions. You act like animals are worse than human. We have proven to be a much more vile set of living creatures. I'm not saying we aren't intrinsically good, it's just that is another topic to discuss. I don't pretend to have the answer nor should I stand up and take a side like it's just absolute. Killing is wrong and we know that. If you are going to focus on abortions to right the wrongs of this world then explain that to the hundreds of millions of dead people who were slaughtered since the early 1900's. There have been far more deaths among already conscious beings than amongst unborn children. How can we factor in one scenario (like abortions) and not fault ourselves for living beyond our means. For all you know abortions could be a saving grace in a rabbit fucking world. We do not know the full extent of what mother Earth can hold, but we care not to actually evaluate our lives on it properly. The way we live now we won't have to worry about abortions in the future and that's a fact because the decisions will be made for us. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 12:52 PM Post #9 |
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Sir finds a lot
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I'm not here to take sides. I just would like to point out that I find it hard to grasp it's full understanding when there are 100 billion stars in a galaxy and there approx. 450 billion galaxies. My point of view could easily be torn to shit, but it won't solve anything. |
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| Roxdog | Jan 24 2008, 01:00 PM Post #10 |
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I don't see how the amount of stars in the sky has anything to do with right and wrong. I don't "focus" on this issue. I simply have an opinion I believe to be right and it isn't too difficult to understand. "We have proven to be a much more vile set of living creatures. " Kindly speak for yourself...and I've never killed an elderly person. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 01:17 PM Post #11 |
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Sir finds a lot
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I'm not saying abortions are a good thing, but you can't just talk about abortions and not factor in the other problems of society of having an affect on these issues. Say what you will, well all need a better understanding of this issue than we all preach to "know" about it. We definitely can't tie a document like the Constitution to settle the moral issues in regards to abortion. It's much more complicated than that even though any bumbling idiot can say "it's not cool mang". NO SHIT. I wouldn't want to be aborted. Nobody would want to. We can't go off on our misunderstandings of our nature and then try and put a tag on an issue. gotta go to class so there will be a delay in my response |
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| Roxdog | Jan 24 2008, 01:38 PM Post #12 |
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So, in order to talk about abortion I must become a moral relativist? I understand the underlying causes of abortion...but that doesn't make it right.
I understand the issue just fine.
You basically keep saying that but won't say WHY that is the case. I believe people have rights. All people. So, I think it ties into the Constitution in a very real and definable sense.
Except it isn't complicated. Simply SAYING something is complicated doesn't make it so. "go off on our misunderstanding of nature"? What does that mean? "put a tag on an issue"? What does that mean? |
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| Roxdog | Jan 24 2008, 01:48 PM Post #13 |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 03:13 PM Post #14 |
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Sir finds a lot
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Please comment on the information that was presented and stop fighting my rhetoric. You are unknowingly acting immature. I have had to write in detail why I don't really hold a position on this and yet you keep rambling. Have fun talking to yourself. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 04:14 PM Post #15 |
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Sir finds a lot
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I redact my usage of the word immature. I think what I'm failing to relay is that I see it not as evil as other things plaguing us today (what if the NWO just destroyed 80 percent of the population - that would dwarf all abortion statistics). I don't think we can address things like abortion when we have unknown people providing us with the new technologies of birth control and this and that. This practice has been done for thousands of years and out of necessity at times. I understand when there is a necessity. I have faith in a higher order, but I also respect the nature of this world. Nature is sometimes cruel (like when a bird just kicks an egg off the nest because of it's odd shape). I will agree that sexual deviance has plagued this earth while birth control pills and abortions are the fad. We live and die. We as a species haven't quite understood our true "divinity" and thus don't exactly know what we are denying of an unborn child. If we play the part of having God partaking in this would he just keep taking those souls and then adding them to wombs or would he let humans die and possibly let a savior go. This is where I start to get confused. I know that the level of communication amongst people is pretty shitty and therefore would be almost impossible to have an insightful conversation on the matter. I have hope in the people, but right now there is no way the masses today can take a side, the world is too ugly. The only light I can see from our current standards is that we have learned not to be so intolerant of others (blacks, mentally handicapped). Then again at the same time I can't help but notice there is a genocide and a holocaust going on. Those people could speak for themselves and a fetus can't and we do nothing for those who are speaking. How shall we interpret what a mute says. |
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| Roxdog | Jan 24 2008, 04:42 PM Post #16 |
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What do you want me to address about what you posted? It's been done for a long time so....what? "Out of necessity"...that is quite vague. This is now. 10s of millions in the wealthiest nation in the world, where people will PAY YOU TO HAVE YOUR BABY, where adoption demand exceeds abortion demand, and there is more than enough info available to keep from getting pregnant...it doesn't make any sense. Sure, it's a symptom of a larger problem...but people still make their individual decisions and I believe this person... ...has inherent rights, just like you and I. I believe it would be hypocritical of me to assert anything to the contrary. Is that picture not awe inspiring to you? It is to me... Edited by Roxdog, Jan 24 2008, 06:09 PM.
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 05:24 PM Post #17 |
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Sir finds a lot
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It is. I just am still appalled at the deaths of those Chinese children. I guess my main assertion against all of this is that if we allow nations to murder those who have stepped afoot on this earth how can we ever tackle the abortion issue. I do believe life is a beautiful thing I just wish we could do more for the ones that are here now. I am disgusted at how expensive of a price they put on babies. I think since we put a value on human life it has partially damned us on these issues until we can actually conquer and say no more of this vile shit. I have like this mental block of abortion because every time I think about it, I think about dying children and it's just a rush of hatred in me. I guess for me it's like this we have to fix this first thing before we can really get down to the second issue. I guess I'm a little partial to moving creatures. |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | Jan 24 2008, 05:24 PM Post #18 |
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You're either pro-life or pro-death........ i don't believe in Gods and Demons and Angels and heavens and hells and souls.................. life is life........ from day 1 to the last day....... but i believe abortion should be legal for cases of medical complications, incest/molestation, rape. but it sickens me that low life trash humans used it as a method of birth control. it's a shame i don't believe in hell because then at least i know they would receive retribution. |
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| arbor | Jan 24 2008, 06:50 PM Post #19 |
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I believe in rights for women. |
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| radicalmom | Jan 24 2008, 08:56 PM Post #20 |
radicalmom
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do you really think an issue such as this can be resolved in a forum on the internet and amongst all the other media available? unwanted pregancy and its ramifications are much too complicated to decide in some feeble chat forum. |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 24 2008, 09:07 PM Post #21 |
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Sir finds a lot
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Rabbits are capable of "freezing" the development of embryos for up to six months, at which point the pregnancy must either be allowed to continue development or aborted, In overcrowded and stressed conditions, rabbit females may hold onto suspended pregnancies that way for some time, to see if conditions ease and they have sufficient resources to sustain babies; however, if conditions don't ease, then the females will secrete a hormone mix which aborts the pregnancy and either resorbs the embryos as long as women are here they will decide whether it's a better environment. We can try and understand the psychological aspects of this all, but I would have to agree that not much can get done discussed online. I wonder if women were able to "freeze their embryos" for some time what the social affects would be. |
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| alexvegas | Jan 25 2008, 09:21 PM Post #22 |
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alex25smash
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When you had a response, it would seem. I responded to your usual rhetoric, and you ignored my response. I can only assume it's because you didn't have anything further to say. Please stop posting photos of foetuses (sorry, microscopic humans; I wouldn't want to be labelled a eugenicist), we all know what they look like. It's like a vegetarian showing a picture of a cow to a meat eater and saying that's why you shouldn't eat meat. There's no logic to it. |
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| Rich | Jan 26 2008, 12:55 PM Post #23 |
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When are you gonna get it into your head?! THIS ISN'T ABOUT TAKING RIGHTS AWAY FROM WOMEN! Just because your pro-life doesn;t mean you believe women have no rights. Fuckin hell man... |
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| Andoo Inc. | Jan 26 2008, 01:24 PM Post #24 |
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Sir finds a lot
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I think he meant to say "I believe it's the woman's right". In that, he is correct no matter how hard we could argue this matter. There are roles we play in nature, the second men start trying to tell women how to run their lives, hahaha just all i can say is haha. If abortion numbers are high it's most likely a reflection of the surroundings, so to boil the conversation down to just abortion is idiotic and will take us nowhere. Lets bring that circle back round yall. |
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| arbor | Jan 27 2008, 04:25 PM Post #25 |
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i would support a ban on abortion when the federal govt. and state govt.s insure that all women will get all the financial and medical support they need to raise the child, since they are being forced to have it. they also should get free childcare so that they can work and support themselves and their child. if the govt. isnt going to provide women with the tools and resources they need to successfully raise a child, it has no business telling them they MUST have it. |
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