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Open Challenge to Skeptics; Recorded phone debate
Topic Started: Jan 18 2008, 07:43 PM (653 Views)
Aldo Marquis CIT	Jan 18 2008, 07:43 PM Post #1
Posts: 1,650 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	Step up and come get some. your fearless leader, Gravy, has too much chicken in him to participate. Let's see who has the grapes.
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TruthSquad	Jan 18 2008, 11:10 PM Post #2
Posts: 36 Group: BANNED! Member #119 Joined: 01/18/08	Aldo or Veryflo....whatever your name is.... All three of the witnesses after a little coaching.... still said they saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Your video debunked itself. You give the government all the credit it the world for pulling off 911...yet they plant NTSB information that is wrong? You can't have it both ways sir. I need you to present one witness that saw the flyover.
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TruthSquad	Jan 18 2008, 11:22 PM Post #3
Posts: 36 Group: BANNED! Member #119 Joined: 01/18/08	Interesting: Quote: From: "Lagasse, William, , PFPA" To: "'apfn@apfn.org '" Dear Sir rest assured it was a Boeing 757 that flew into the building that day, I was on duty as a pentagon police sgt. I was refueling my vehicle at the barraks k gas station that day adjacent to the aircrafts flight path. It was close enough that i could see the windows had the shades pulled down, it struck several light poles next to rt 27 and struck a trailer used to store construction equipment for the renovation of the pentagon that was to the right of the fueselage impact point. The fact that you are insinuating that this was staged and a fraud is unbelievable. You ask were the debris is...well it was in the building..I saw it everywhere. I swear to god you people piss me off to no end. I invite you and you come down and I will walk you through it step by step. I have more than a few hours in general aviation aircraft and can identify commercial airliners. Have you ever seen photos of other aircraft accident photos...there usually isnt huge amounts of debris left...how much did you see from the WTC?...are those fake aircraft flying into the building. I know that this will make no diffrence to you because to even have a websight like this you are obviously a diffrent sort of thinker
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Aldo Marquis CIT	Jan 19 2008, 10:19 AM Post #4
Posts: 1,650 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	Quote: Aldo or Veryflo....whatever your name is.... It's Aldo. Quote: All three of the witnesses after a little coaching.... Coaching? You're cheating again Jrefer. Not one witness was coached. Clearly your denial knows no bounds. If anything they were led back to the official story which they refuted. Quote: still said they saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Your video debunked itself. Genius, the focus is not that they "believed" the plane hit the building. It is that they saw it approach from the north side of the Citgo. This is what destroys the official story. Making vague declarations using the word "debunked" doesn't change that. Do you think they would have given us an interview if they saw or believed it flew over? Did you know that Sgt Brooks told us that he stands by where he saw the plane and what the plane looked like and told us our film was an "eye-opener" and that "anything was possible" when it came to him being fooled. So are you saying that the plane hit the building coming from the north side of the Citgo? Is that what you are saying? Quote: You give the government all the credit it the world for pulling off 911...yet they plant NTSB information that is wrong? You can't have it both ways sir. Your thinking can't be that simple can it? That is an argument from personal incredulity. First of all who said it was "the gov't", how do you know it wasn't some rogue gang of intelligence/military people with lot's of backing? The data being incorrect is what it is. Are you simply not going to believe it because you can't believe it? Quote: I need you to present one witness that saw the flyover. I need to do no such thing. You need to think this through. Just curious, after you've declared your imaginary debunking victory over the flyover, what the hell are you going to do about those light poles and the cab? Remember, the north side approach not only supports the flyover but implicates the cab driver in a lie and means the poles weren't downed by a plane.
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Aldo Marquis CIT	Jan 19 2008, 10:26 AM Post #5
Posts: 1,650 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	TruthSquad Jan 18 2008, 11:22 PM Interesting: Quote: From: "Lagasse, William, , PFPA" To: "'apfn@apfn.org '" Dear Sir rest assured it was a Boeing 757 that flew into the building that day, I was on duty as a pentagon police sgt. I was refueling my vehicle at the barraks k gas station that day adjacent to the aircrafts flight path. It was close enough that i could see the windows had the shades pulled down, it struck several light poles next to rt 27 and struck a trailer used to store construction equipment for the renovation of the pentagon that was to the right of the fueselage impact point. The fact that you are insinuating that this was staged and a fraud is unbelievable. You ask were the debris is...well it was in the building..I saw it everywhere. I swear to god you people piss me off to no end. I invite you and you come down and I will walk you through it step by step. I have more than a few hours in general aviation aircraft and can identify commercial airliners. Have you ever seen photos of other aircraft accident photos...there usually isnt huge amounts of debris left...how much did you see from the WTC?...are those fake aircraft flying into the building. I know that this will make no diffrence to you because to even have a websight like this you are obviously a diffrent sort of thinker Yeah wow. An e-mail from Lagasse from 2003. Wow. You should see the e-mails now lol. You missed this part of the e-mail btw... I was refueling my vehicle at the barraks k gas station that day adjacent to the aircrafts flight path... I was on the Starboard side of the aircraft. "Interesting" huh?
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IVXX	Jan 19 2008, 10:49 AM Post #6
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	Aldo I don't mean to rain on your parade but you really didn't expect any of the "skeptics" here to actually take you up on this did you?? It's much easier for them to attack you behind the safety of their keyboard and an anonymous screenname.



Aldo Marquis CIT	Jan 19 2008, 11:50 AM Post #7
Posts: 1,650 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: 01/14/08	Exactly. They are cowards- all of them. They live to needlessly cast doubt, ignore, ridicule, distract, omit, skirt around issues, ignore evidence, play circular word games. Mark Roberts uses the ignore and ridicule tactics predominantly. We're here if anyone wants to step up and get some. Thanks for pointing that out though, IVXX. Sometimes I just expect too much of people.
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TruthSquad	Jan 19 2008, 04:14 PM Post #8
Posts: 36 Group: BANNED! Member #119 Joined: 01/18/08	Aldo Marquis CIT Jan 19 2008, 11:50 AM Exactly. They are cowards- all of them. They live to needlessly cast doubt, ignore, ridicule, distract, omit, skirt around issues, ignore evidence, play circular word games. Mark Roberts uses the ignore and ridicule tactics predominantly. We're here if anyone wants to step up and get some. Thanks for pointing that out though, IVXX. Sometimes I just expect too much of people. How laughable ! Aldo, are you a hero because you use your real name? I am a coward because I don't? Skeptics like myself are cowards for what?? Ignoring evidence?? Omit?? skirts around issues???? ect. Hello Pot.... Meet Kettle!! Aldo, was Craig drinking with Rob from PFT the night Rob made one of his death threats to Mark Roberts? Sorry, I am not hiding behind anything. I choose not to reveal my name ANYWHERE on the internet. I prefer to keep me and my family safe. Aldo, if you and Craig are ever at a truther conference in Boston, please let me know. I would be more than happy to sit down and have a beer with you guys. (in a public place)
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IVXX	Jan 19 2008, 04:20 PM Post #9
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	TruthSquad Jan 19 2008, 04:14 PM Aldo, was Craig drinking with Rob from PFT the night Rob made one of his death threats to Mark Roberts? Aldo, if you and Craig are ever at a truther conference in Boston, please let me know. I would be more than happy to sit down and have a beer with you guys. (in a public place) Your first comment is relevant how?? You're second comment, you're saying Craig and Aldo could be unsafe to your physical being?? Do me a favor and collect that proof during your 7 day vacation.



arbor	Jan 19 2008, 06:49 PM Post #10
Posts: 450 Group: BANNED! Member #100 Joined: 01/16/08	i really dont think a fair and intellectually sound debate is even possible. no one can agree on reliable sources. no one can agree on reliable qualifications for "evidence". one man's witness is another man's liar or paid agent. one man's expert is another man's lunatic or shill. in the end, its all just a pissing contest, and no one is listening. =) Edited by arbor, Jan 19 2008, 06:49 PM.
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nicepants	Jan 19 2008, 07:23 PM Post #11
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	Aldo Marquis CIT Jan 18 2008, 07:43 PM Step up and come get some. your fearless leader, Gravy, has too much chicken in him to participate. Let's see who has the grapes. Actually, he won't debate you because the way you defend your beliefs is to claim that all evidence contradicting you is fake. I would do this, but you can't even answer my questions on this message board, how would doing this over the phone change anything? ETA: Add to that, Aldo's admission that his belief in the citgo witnesses is unfalsifiable...he literally said it wouldn't matter if we had videotape proving them wrong, he wouldn't accept it. What's the point of having a debate if you're unwilling to consider the fact that you may be wrong? (Or are you just doing this for attention?) Edited by nicepants, Jan 19 2008, 07:27 PM.
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datman	Jan 19 2008, 11:06 PM Post #12
Posts: 112 Group: Members Member #137 Joined: 01/19/08	Don’t you skeptics find it interesting all of the little anomalies that happened as a result of 911? Like the passport found on the sidewalk in NYC, The bag found at the airport that as luck would have it did not make it on the plane. That had copy of the Koran, flight manual and a will. That fires and explosions were reported in wt7 before either building fell and there is photographic evidence that would suggest those fire were present. Reports and sub sequential denials of molten-metal found up to 6 weeks later. How the sites were cleaned up and shipped to china before any real investigation could be dune. If only to see how a steel building could collapse from fire? How come they changed their stories so many times? Where was Cheney at 9:38? Why did he say he was not down in the bunker until 10:04? How does a plane (fl 93) crash and leave a 2-8 mile debris field? Do you actually believe the pilot of fl 77 who was a top gun pilot in the air force would have given the plane up without sending the hijacked code? How is it that fl 77 could fly around for 45 minutes and not get intercepted? Even when they knew 4 planes were hijacked. I could go on for hours. So all these thing you have a blind eye and say they made a few mistakes.
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Kaiya	Jan 19 2008, 11:53 PM Post #13
Posts: 147 Group: BANNED! Member #104 Joined: 01/17/08	datman Jan 19 2008, 11:06 PM That fires and explosions were reported in wt7 before either building fell and there is photographic evidence that would suggest those fire were present. Reports and sub sequential denials of molten-metal found up to 6 weeks later. How come they changed their stories so many times? How does a plane (fl 93) crash and leave a 2-8 mile debris field? Do you actually believe the pilot of fl 77 who was a top gun pilot in the air force would have given the plane up without sending the hijacked code? I could go on for hours. So all these thing you have a blind eye and say they made a few mistakes. Fires and explosions in a building containing fuel tanks would not be considered unusual by most people. Who reported then denied the presence of molten metal at the WTC? A story changes as additional evidence is revealed. Who are your story changers? An airliner traveling over 500 mph and hitting the ground at a 40 degree angle can leave debris over a wide area. There are no "Top Gun" air force pilots. Top Gun is a US Navy fighter weapons school. Can you give us the name of ANY American airline pilot who physically resisted a hijacker in the cockpit in the last 30 years? They made a whole bunch of mistakes. When the DOD is looking outside for our enemies instead of also looking inside, then a whole comedy of errors is likely to contribute to a disaster like this. There are rarely just a few things contributing to any disaster. Kaiya Edited by Kaiya, Jan 19 2008, 11:54 PM.
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nicepants	Jan 20 2008, 03:52 AM Post #14
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	datman Jan 19 2008, 11:06 PM Don’t you skeptics find it interesting all of the little anomalies that happened as a result of 911? Like the passport found on the sidewalk in NYC, The bag found at the airport that as luck would have it did not make it on the plane. That had copy of the Koran, flight manual and a will. That fires and explosions were reported in wt7 before either building fell and there is photographic evidence that would suggest those fire were present. Reports and sub sequential denials of molten-metal found up to 6 weeks later. How the sites were cleaned up and shipped to china before any real investigation could be dune. If only to see how a steel building could collapse from fire? How come they changed their stories so many times? Where was Cheney at 9:38? Why did he say he was not down in the bunker until 10:04? How does a plane (fl 93) crash and leave a 2-8 mile debris field? Do you actually believe the pilot of fl 77 who was a top gun pilot in the air force would have given the plane up without sending the hijacked code? How is it that fl 77 could fly around for 45 minutes and not get intercepted? Even when they knew 4 planes were hijacked. I could go on for hours. So all these thing you have a blind eye and say they made a few mistakes. Give us your theory for what happened on 9/11 and I bet we'll find about 100x more "anomalies".
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IVXX	Jan 20 2008, 12:21 PM Post #15
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	Kaiya Jan 19 2008, 11:53 PM An airliner traveling over 500 mph and hitting the ground at a 40 degree angle can leave debris over a wide area. Can you source another commercial airliner crash where debris was found up to 8 miles away from the impact site?? On 9/11 all 4 planes impacted about the same average speed. Let's look at the other 3 Flights. Flight 11, Flight 175 and Flight 77 - No debris found over a mile away from impact, no mind 8 miles away.



Kaiya	Jan 20 2008, 03:18 PM Post #16
Posts: 147 Group: BANNED! Member #104 Joined: 01/17/08	IVXX Jan 20 2008, 12:21 PM Can you source another commercial airliner crash where debris was found up to 8 miles away from the impact site?? On 9/11 all 4 planes impacted about the same average speed. Let's look at the other 3 Flights. Flight 11, Flight 175 and Flight 77 - No debris found over a mile away from impact, no mind 8 miles away. For those on land I can not. A few crashes out at sea have had debris spread over a wide area, but they are not really comparable. As far as I know flight 93 was rather unique in that it was a medium haul airliner crashing into the ground at greater than 500 mph nose first at about a 40 degree angle. A vast majority of other airliner crashes have had a pilot at the controls trying to save the plane; they were less than 200 mph and landed belly down, not nose down. The other three flights crashed at nearly level attitude into buildings that partially contained the debris. They were so different in nature that one should hardly expect to say that flight 93 would not be expected to contain debris at the crash site like the ones at the WTC and Pentagon. Kaiya
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nicepants	Jan 20 2008, 03:20 PM Post #17
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	IVXX Jan 20 2008, 12:21 PM Kaiya Jan 19 2008, 11:53 PM An airliner traveling over 500 mph and hitting the ground at a 40 degree angle can leave debris over a wide area. Can you source another commercial airliner crash where debris was found up to 8 miles away from the impact site?? On 9/11 all 4 planes impacted about the same average speed. Let's look at the other 3 Flights. Flight 11, Flight 175 and Flight 77 - No debris found over a mile away from impact, no mind 8 miles away. Those flights all crashed into buildings, not into the ground. I don't know, specifically, of any other 757 hitting the ground at 500mph at a 40 degree angle. If there are any other such crashes, the debris field could be comparable, otherwise we'd be talking apples to oranges. Edited by nicepants, Jan 20 2008, 03:20 PM.
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IVXX	Jan 20 2008, 05:01 PM Post #18
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	Kaiya and Nicepants, Even with a 40 dgree angle and 500 mile an hour impact you really think the explosion and force of impact would send debris 8 miles away?? Nicepants, I know those other flights crashed into buildings or are said to (Flight77) my thing with comparing them is two points. 1 - The debris from the three flights was mainly contained in the buildings. Just like they said 93 burrowed itself into the ground. Now what would you say is stronger?? A building or the soft dirt of an old mine?? As the other three flights "burrowed' their way into the buildings why didn't the explosion and force of impact send any debris flying up to 8 miles away from the impact site??



datman	Jan 20 2008, 09:34 PM Post #19
Posts: 112 Group: Members Member #137 Joined: 01/19/08	Kaiya Jan 19 2008, 11:53 PM datman Jan 19 2008, 11:06 PM That fires and explosions were reported in wt7 before either building fell and there is photographic evidence that would suggest those fire were present. Reports and sub sequential denials of molten-metal found up to 6 weeks later. How come they changed their stories so many times? How does a plane (fl 93) crash and leave a 2-8 mile debris field? Do you actually believe the pilot of fl 77 who was a top gun pilot in the air force would have given the plane up without sending the hijacked code? I could go on for hours. So all these thing you have a blind eye and say they made a few mistakes. Fires and explosions in a building containing fuel tanks would not be considered unusual by most people. Who reported then denied the presence of molten metal at the WTC? A story changes as additional evidence is revealed. Who are your story changers? An airliner traveling over 500 mph and hitting the ground at a 40 degree angle can leave debris over a wide area. There are no "Top Gun" air force pilots. Top Gun is a US Navy fighter weapons school. Can you give us the name of ANY American airline pilot who physically resisted a hijacker in the cockpit in the last 30 years? They made a whole bunch of mistakes. When the DOD is looking outside for our enemies instead of also looking inside, then a whole comedy of errors is likely to contribute to a disaster like this. There are rarely just a few things contributing to any disaster. Kaiya you should watch final cut all the things I listed are in the film. From there all points can independently researched. you see after you are into this for a while you see a pattern. You pick your disaster, Oklahoma city, 911,7-7-05 London,Kennedy assassination. The 1st news reports always seem to tell a completely different story then the original stories.AS they are proved wrong or not possible they change it.
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nicepants	Jan 20 2008, 10:50 PM Post #20
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	IVXX Jan 20 2008, 05:01 PM Kaiya and Nicepants, Even with a 40 dgree angle and 500 mile an hour impact you really think the explosion and force of impact would send debris 8 miles away?? I don't know, I see no reason to believe that it couldn't happen. How far do you think the debris should have gone? I don't know of any similar events which could serve as a comparison.
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IVXX	Jan 20 2008, 11:08 PM Post #21
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	nicepants Jan 20 2008, 10:50 PM I don't know, I see no reason to believe that it couldn't happen. How far do you think the debris should have gone? I don't know of any similar events which could serve as a comparison. I have no idea how far it should have went and if I had an answer it would be totally irrelevant. There was debris found 8 miles away from the crash site. If the explanation is the explosion and force of impacted caused that, the burden of proof is not on me.



nicepants	Jan 21 2008, 10:04 AM Post #22
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	IVXX Jan 20 2008, 11:08 PM nicepants Jan 20 2008, 10:50 PM I don't know, I see no reason to believe that it couldn't happen. How far do you think the debris should have gone? I don't know of any similar events which could serve as a comparison. I have no idea how far it should have went and if I had an answer it would be totally irrelevant. There was debris found 8 miles away from the crash site. If the explanation is the explosion and force of impacted caused that, the burden of proof is not on me. 8 miles by road or 8 miles by air? (Previous claims of this sort had used google maps directions which make the distance much longer) I'm not making a claim here. You said debris was found 8 miles away, so if that's the case, it happened...what are you still waiting for proof of?
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IVXX	Jan 21 2008, 10:55 AM Post #23
MDCCLXXVI Posts: 162 Group: Admins Member #3 Joined: 12/21/07	I'm not asking for proof so to say. I agree with you and Kaiya, there is no other crash to compare it to. The previous claims you mention are about the distance to Indian lake and how far it is by air compared to by land. However I'm not talking about Indian Lake. I'm talking about New Baltimore. New Baltimore is 8 miles away, give or take. Now I know Flight 93 is said to have made impact at 500 mph and at a 40 degree angle. The official story says because of the extreme rate of speed most of Flight 93 burrowed itself into the ground. Now look at a map and the distance between Shanksville and New Baltimore. Try to imagine staring down an 8 mile straight away. So it burrowed itself in the ground yet debris was found 8 miles away. I just don't see how there was enough force from the impact and explosion to accomplish both. Another good question. Though it is said both engines were recovered, has anyone ever seen a picture of the second engine?? The one that didn't burrow itself into the ground.



Lin Kuei	Jan 21 2008, 11:37 AM Post #24
Posts: 1,312 Group: Admins Member #5 Joined: 12/22/07	nicepants Jan 20 2008, 03:52 AM Give us your theory for what happened on 9/11 and I bet we'll find about 100x more "anomalies". who cares for theories about what happened? we know what didn't happen, and we know for sure there are conflicting stories coming from the establishment - the commission is one example of this.
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nicepants	Jan 21 2008, 11:51 AM Post #25
Posts: 303 Group: BANNED! Member #59 Joined: 01/15/08	IVXX Jan 21 2008, 10:55 AM Now I know Flight 93 is said to have made impact at 500 mph and at a 40 degree angle. The official story says because of the extreme rate of speed most of Flight 93 burrowed itself into the ground. Now look at a map and the distance between Shanksville and New Baltimore. Try to imagine staring down an 8 mile straight away. So it burrowed itself in the ground yet debris was found 8 miles away. I just don't see how there was enough force from the impact and explosion to accomplish both.[/b] That's fine if you have that opinion, but to attempt to claim that opinion as evidence of some event would be an Argument from Personal Incredulity. If you want to say that it didn't or couldn't have happened, you'll need to show some legitimate evidence. Edited by nicepants, Jan 21 2008, 11:51 AM.
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