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Are there any flyover witnesses?
Topic Started: Jan 16 2008, 02:13 AM (8,686 Views)
nicepants

Domenick DiMaggio CIT
Jan 28 2008, 02:19 PM
nicepants
Jan 28 2008, 02:02 PM


? Because I disagree with you?
You still haven't told us how you determined that the NOC claim was true, or how you would know if your witnesses were wrong.

please see post #154
Your answer on post 154 was "through multiple eyewitness corroboration."

That would mean that all of the witnesses could be wrong about a claim, but as long as they all make the same claim, you would conclude that their claim is 100% proven. Would you agree?
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Bret08
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repeated trolling offender
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
Jan 28 2008, 01:58 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 12:39 PM
That just proves that you will stick to your theory, even though not one shred of proof supports it, while evidence upon evidence supports AA77 sticking pentagon killing 189 people. Lagasse and Brooks are the worst witnesses I have ever seen in my life. They are wrong on so many of the facts, that it is laughable that anyone takes them seriously.
LaGasse and Brooks are "wrong on so many facts". This isn't a fucking quiz.

LaGasse and Brooks are right on what they saw. As are all the other witnesses who corroborate their claims. Do you need the list posted in every response to you to remind you of this FACT?

Feel free to go to the CITGO station and prove LaGasse and Brooks weren't in position to see what they claim they saw.

Kind of like what has been done to Mike Walter (I'm sure one of your heros) :


They claimed to see a plane crash into the pentagon. Maybe CIT should sit down with them and tell them, that there is no way they could have seen that. They won't do it, because they want to stick to the noc claim. Brooks says he saw a United plane with 'United' written in blue. In 2001 United planes had 'United Airlines' written in white. In 2004 they changed their color scheme to 'United' written in blue. How did he see a United plane that didn't exist in 2001? You don't mistake something that you could not have seen. He is not a credible witness, you have to dismiss anything he says. Same with Lagasse, you say he is right about the north claim, but wrong about everything else. He would be laughed out of a courtroom, especially when he starts arguing with the facts. He doesn't know what he is talking about. We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR ,many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building. I think you are at the point of doing this for entertainment, you couldn't possibly believe the flyover theory.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1316899 (United Airlines 2004-present)


http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1315198 (United Airlines 1993-2004)
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Craig Ranke CIT
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Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
They claimed to see a plane crash into the pentagon. Maybe CIT should sit down with them and tell them, that there is no way they could have seen that. They won't do it, because they want to stick to the noc claim.
Yes we did and yes we would.

We had dinner at Mike Walter's house before we even knew about the north side witnesses.

We have called him SINCE we obtained the north side evidence to discuss it with him direct.

He won't return the call.

Quote:
 

Brooks says he saw a United plane with 'United' written in blue. In 2001 United planes had 'United Airlines' written in white. In 2004 they changed their color scheme to 'United' written in blue. How did he see a United plane that didn't exist in 2001?


Omar Campos also called it United and said it was white with a blue bottom. We found many other witnesses who claim the plane was white corroborating Chad's claim.


Quote:
 

You don't mistake something that you could not have seen. He is not a credible witness, you have to dismiss anything he says. Same with Lagasse, you say he is right about the north claim, but wrong about everything else.


Wrong. That is not how investigations work.

Investigators assume that witnesses will be incorrect about some details. That is not a valid reason to completely dismiss their testimony. Investigators know that corroboration is how to determine what claims are correct and they also know that evidence is usually planted, covered up, and tampered with by the perpetrator to hide guilt.



Quote:
 

He would be laughed out of a courtroom, especially when he starts arguing with the facts. He doesn't know what he is talking about. We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR ,many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building. I think you are at the point of doing this for entertainment, you couldn't possibly believe the flyover theory.


Argument from personal incredulity.

Consider this analogy:

100 written witness statements exist regarding a massive fatal car accident between a 4 door sedan and a truck on a particular corner of a busy intersection in the center of town. The accident was caused by a dog on the road. 7 credible witnesses who frequent the intersection on a daily basis before and since the accident were interviewed a few years later, most on location. 2 are local police officers.

All 7 independently state the accident occurred on the same corner of the intersection. None of the other 93 written statements directly contradict this claim. Would a jury be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the 7 are correct about which corner of the intersection the accident was on?

To expand on this........the 7 witnesses differed in regards to the exact color and make of the car and truck involved but all matched as far as more general details like the fact that it was a 4 door sedan and a truck. Would this cause the jury to completely dismiss all of their testimony?

Also......none of the 7 witnesses saw the dog and were fully convinced that it was the fault of the truck driver. Does this mean the dog did not cause the accident, that the truck driver was at fault, or that their placement of the accident on the same corner should be dismissed?




Edited by Craig Ranke CIT, Jan 28 2008, 03:54 PM.
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Aldo Marquis CIT
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nicepants
Jan 28 2008, 12:56 PM
Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 12:43 PM
Do you think they would have given us an interview where they highlighted the north side approach if they believed the plane did not hit?

This is getting so incredibly stupid.

Can the admins please do something about this? Is there an ignore button?
Aldo Marquis CIT
 
More circles from Nicepants. Big surprise.

Nicepants, why can't you stop this nonsense? Are you actually reading what you are writing?

You are trying to imply that they could see the plane on the north side AND see an actual impact.


That's what they claim.

Aldo Marquis CIT
 
Then you switch and imply that they are only correct about the impact based on absolutely nothing but YOUR belief in the impact.


I'm showing you how your logic works both ways.

I'm reading what I'm writing, and I'm reading what you're writing. You're obviously afraid to face the facts.

The facts are:

Your witnesses report NOC AND an impact.

You simply reject their impact claim because you believe their NOC claim has been "proven" simply because they agree. This is faulty logic to say the least. To claim that something is proven merely on agreement alone is the reason that the rest of your reasoning suffers.

Now you complain to the admins because you can't continue to support your fact-less arguments in the face of criticism?

You have still not answered my question truthfully:

How were you able to determine that the North-of-citgo claims were not wrong?
Or, if it helps to think of it another way: If the NOC claims were wrong, how would you know?
No you are afraid to face the facts.

You afraid to believe them.

This is just a game to you. This isn't a debate game of logic. This is one simple fact that supercedes another. This is what you refuse to accept publically.

Do you notice you are the ONLY ONE here with this weak, practically psychotic, point? Do you think you've been trained in the art of "logic" by the likes of the geeky debate squad at J--F to the point where you have lost sight of a genuine problem in the official story? Is that all this is about? Your interpretation of knowledge? Is this a fucking hypothetical SAT question to you? Do you Lagasse Brooks and co actually exist to you, or are you so sick and demented that they are just values in a logic equation. Do they represent actual witnesses and human beinga who are scared about what they saw or are they just names and statements that you can play circle games with because you think you understand "logic" and feel you can utilize all the critical thinking/debate buzzwords?

Which were they closer to? The gas station or the face of the wall where the plane allegedly impacted? Based on that which detail would you say they got right, the north side approach or the alleged impact or are you trying to imply they could get both right? Pick one.

Based on the fact that they all saw the plane on the north side, is it safe to say that the plane was on the north side?





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Aldo Marquis CIT
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Which were they closer to? The gas station or the face of the wall where the plane allegedly impacted? Based on that which detail would you say they got right, the north side approach or the alleged impact or are you trying to imply they could get both right? Pick one.

Based on the fact that they all saw the plane on the north side, is it safe to say that the plane was on the north side?
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nicepants

Aldo Marquis CIT
 
Do you notice you are the ONLY ONE here with this weak, practically psychotic, point? Do you think you've been trained in the art of "logic" by the likes of the geeky debate squad at J--F to the point where you have lost sight of a genuine problem in the official story? Is that all this is about? Your interpretation of knowledge? Is this a fucking hypothetical SAT question to you? Do you Lagasse Brooks and co actually exist to you, or are you so sick and demented that they are just values in a logic equation. Do they represent actual witnesses and human beinga who are scared about what they saw or are they just names and statements that you can play circle games with because you think you understand "logic" and feel you can utilize all the critical thinking/debate buzzwords?


Expecting you to validate your witnesses is a "practically psychotic point?"

I answered your 2 questions in the other thread where you posted them. You still haven't answered mine:

How were you able to determine that the North-of-citgo claims were not wrong?
Or, if it helps to think of it another way: If the NOC claims were wrong, how would you know?
Edited by nicepants, Jan 28 2008, 04:30 PM.
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Bret08
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repeated trolling offender
Craig Ranke CIT
Jan 28 2008, 03:36 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
They claimed to see a plane crash into the pentagon. Maybe CIT should sit down with them and tell them, that there is no way they could have seen that. They won't do it, because they want to stick to the noc claim.
Yes we did and yes we would.

We had dinner at Mike Walter's house before we even knew about the north side witnesses.

We have called him SINCE we obtained the north side evidence to discuss it with him direct.

He won't return the call.

Quote:
 

Brooks says he saw a United plane with 'United' written in blue. In 2001 United planes had 'United Airlines' written in white. In 2004 they changed their color scheme to 'United' written in blue. How did he see a United plane that didn't exist in 2001?


Omar Campos also called it United and said it was white with a blue bottom. We found many other witnesses who claim the plane was white corroborating Chad's claim.


Quote:
 

You don't mistake something that you could not have seen. He is not a credible witness, you have to dismiss anything he says. Same with Lagasse, you say he is right about the north claim, but wrong about everything else.


Wrong. That is not how investigations work.

Investigators assume that witnesses will be incorrect about some details. That is not a valid reason to completely dismiss their testimony. Investigators know that corroboration is how to determine what claims are correct and they also know that evidence is usually planted, covered up, and tampered with by the perpetrator to hide guilt.



Quote:
 

He would be laughed out of a courtroom, especially when he starts arguing with the facts. He doesn't know what he is talking about. We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR ,many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building. I think you are at the point of doing this for entertainment, you couldn't possibly believe the flyover theory.


Argument from personal incredulity.

Consider this analogy:

100 written witness statements exist regarding a massive fatal car accident between a 4 door sedan and a truck on a particular corner of a busy intersection in the center of town. The accident was caused by a dog on the road. 7 credible witnesses who frequent the intersection on a daily basis before and since the accident were interviewed a few years later, most on location. 2 are local police officers.

All 7 independently state the accident occurred on the same corner of the intersection. None of the other 93 written statements directly contradict this claim. Would a jury be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the 7 are correct about which corner of the intersection the accident was on?

To expand on this........the 7 witnesses differed in regards to the exact color and make of the car and truck involved but all matched as far as more general details like the fact that it was a 4 door sedan and a truck. Would this cause the jury to completely dismiss all of their testimony?

Also......none of the 7 witnesses saw the dog and were fully convinced that it was the fault of the truck driver. Does this mean the dog did not cause the accident, that the truck driver was at fault, or that their placement of the accident on the same corner should be dismissed?




That is not how it works in court. A witness is not even called if he is not credible. Brooks describes the new United colors perfectly. There is no way he was mistaken. He just got caught lying. Why didn't CIT question Lagasse and explain to him that he was an idiot and the plane could not have hit the building? I would love to see that interview.
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Domenick DiMaggio

nicepants
Jan 28 2008, 02:25 PM
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
Jan 28 2008, 02:19 PM
nicepants
Jan 28 2008, 02:02 PM


? Because I disagree with you?
You still haven't told us how you determined that the NOC claim was true, or how you would know if your witnesses were wrong.

please see post #154
Your answer on post 154 was "through multiple eyewitness corroboration."

That would mean that all of the witnesses could be wrong about a claim, but as long as they all make the same claim, you would conclude that their claim is 100% proven. Would you agree?
Let's see we're in a court of a Law and John Doe is on trial for murder and the evidence is a gun which has his fingerprints on it.

The defense brings in 7 eyewitnesses to the shooting. None of them work for or are related to Mr. Doe.

All 7 eyewitnesses recall their story in all 7 cases they name Sheriff Johnson as the shooter and only shooter.

So you would still convict John Doe instead and say all 7 eyewitnesses hallucinated who really fired the gun. Right?
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Domenick DiMaggio

Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
They claimed to see a plane crash into the pentagon. Maybe CIT should sit down with them and tell them, that there is no way they could have seen that.




Now we understand why you are an armchair researcher and not a legitimate one.

Quote:
 
They won't do it, because they want to stick to the noc claim.


When you interview someone, you ask them questions and then they answer. Then you make a decision whether or not you believe them. You do not insult, belittle, attack, and then explain to them how they are wrong about their own life experience.

You're a joke.

Quote:
 
Brooks says he saw a United plane with 'United' written in blue. In 2001 United planes had 'United Airlines' written in white. In 2004 they changed their color scheme to 'United' written in blue. How did he see a United plane that didn't exist in 2001?


Hmmmm.......... the question here is can someone read what is written on a plane while it is traveling pass at a high rate of speed. Since this aspect of his claim isn't corroborated by any other witnesses I'll choose to dismiss it as an embellishment most likely.

Now if 6 or 7 people corroborated that I would defend it.


Quote:
 
You don't mistake something that you could not have seen. He is not a credible witness, you have to dismiss anything he says.


So let me get this straight, you don't believe a Police Sargeant is a credible witness to tell his tale of his life experience and then match up what parts of his story corroborate with others?

Yep, you're a JOKE and the furthest thing from a real researcher. You're probably waiting for The O'Reilly Factor as I type..............

Quote:
 
Same with Lagasse, you say he is right about the north claim, but wrong about everything else. He would be laughed out of a courtroom, especially when he starts arguing with the facts.


So what you are asking people to believe is that government don't deceive their people and no one has ever faked a crime in the history of mankind.

Because the "facts" might look like Suspect A is guilty of the crime but the Truth is that Suspect B is the one who really did it. Happens more often than you apparently are aware of, especially inside America.


Quote:
 
We have DNA,


No, you have someone's word. The same people who dreamt up operations Northwoods and Mockingbird. The people who brought us the Gulf of Tonkin, Arming Al Qaeda & Saddam, Iran-Contra, WMD lies, Lies about secret CIA prisons, routine tortures, and loss of liberties for American Citizens.

But I'm sure 9/11 is the time they aren't just crying wolf, right?


Quote:
 
boeing 757-200 parts,


Really? Because I've seen those same parts used to prove a Skywarrior (which I also don't believe) rather convincingly.


Quote:
 
FDR


Which despite somes claims, conclusively proves light poles could not have been hit and that the plane could not have hit the Pentagon. Some people say fdr's sometimes are missing 5-6 seconds. This is a total fabrication invented by people who have no knowledge in that field what so ever.



Quote:
 
many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building.


So you believe Mike Walter and the USA Today saw what they say they saw despite the fact it has been proven there is no physical possibility on this planet they could see what they described from their perspectives?


Quote:
 
I think you are at the point of doing this for entertainment, you couldn't possibly believe the flyover theory.


I think you are solely doing this for entertainment or financial reasons.

Congratulations!!!!!

You and "nicepants" are now going onto my ignore list. God I am going to love this feature!!!!!!!!




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Bret08
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repeated trolling offender
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
Jan 28 2008, 08:15 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
They claimed to see a plane crash into the pentagon. Maybe CIT should sit down with them and tell them, that there is no way they could have seen that.




Now we understand why you are an armchair researcher and not a legitimate one.

Quote:
 
They won't do it, because they want to stick to the noc claim.


When you interview someone, you ask them questions and then they answer. Then you make a decision whether or not you believe them. You do not insult, belittle, attack, and then explain to them how they are wrong about their own life experience.

You're a joke.

Quote:
 
Brooks says he saw a United plane with 'United' written in blue. In 2001 United planes had 'United Airlines' written in white. In 2004 they changed their color scheme to 'United' written in blue. How did he see a United plane that didn't exist in 2001?


Hmmmm.......... the question here is can someone read what is written on a plane while it is traveling pass at a high rate of speed. Since this aspect of his claim isn't corroborated by any other witnesses I'll choose to dismiss it as an embellishment most likely.

Now if 6 or 7 people corroborated that I would defend it.


Quote:
 
You don't mistake something that you could not have seen. He is not a credible witness, you have to dismiss anything he says.


So let me get this straight, you don't believe a Police Sargeant is a credible witness to tell his tale of his life experience and then match up what parts of his story corroborate with others?

Yep, you're a JOKE and the furthest thing from a real researcher. You're probably waiting for The O'Reilly Factor as I type..............

Quote:
 
Same with Lagasse, you say he is right about the north claim, but wrong about everything else. He would be laughed out of a courtroom, especially when he starts arguing with the facts.


So what you are asking people to believe is that government don't deceive their people and no one has ever faked a crime in the history of mankind.

Because the "facts" might look like Suspect A is guilty of the crime but the Truth is that Suspect B is the one who really did it. Happens more often than you apparently are aware of, especially inside America.


Quote:
 
We have DNA,


No, you have someone's word. The same people who dreamt up operations Northwoods and Mockingbird. The people who brought us the Gulf of Tonkin, Arming Al Qaeda & Saddam, Iran-Contra, WMD lies, Lies about secret CIA prisons, routine tortures, and loss of liberties for American Citizens.

But I'm sure 9/11 is the time they aren't just crying wolf, right?


Quote:
 
boeing 757-200 parts,


Really? Because I've seen those same parts used to prove a Skywarrior (which I also don't believe) rather convincingly.


Quote:
 
FDR


Which despite somes claims, conclusively proves light poles could not have been hit and that the plane could not have hit the Pentagon. Some people say fdr's sometimes are missing 5-6 seconds. This is a total fabrication invented by people who have no knowledge in that field what so ever.



Quote:
 
many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building.


So you believe Mike Walter and the USA Today saw what they say they saw despite the fact it has been proven there is no physical possibility on this planet they could see what they described from their perspectives?


Quote:
 
I think you are at the point of doing this for entertainment, you couldn't possibly believe the flyover theory.


I think you are solely doing this for entertainment or financial reasons.

Congratulations!!!!!

You and "nicepants" are now going onto my ignore list. God I am going to love this feature!!!!!!!!




You are the joke dude. A credible witness will only testify to what he saw, not what someone told them, or what they read in the paper, or what they deduced. Witnesses like Lagasse and Brooks who are willing to take it 2,3,4 steps beyond what they actually witnessed can't be trusted. Brooks never saw a United plane that looked like that that day. Why did he say he did? Brooks and Lagasse say they saw the plane hit the building. You say they didn't, so that is another point they are wrong on. Lagasse insists that the cab and light poles were where they weren't. When do we decide that these are credible witnesses?
You say Mike Walters can't be believed, because you don't think he could have seen what he said from his point of view. Lagasse and Brooks can't be believed either.


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Reddawn

Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 12:10 PM
The witnesses saw it on the north side, that is FACT. If they saw it on the north side, their belief (Sgt Brooks changed his belief) that it hit the building is irrelevant.

I'm late to the thread but I had to comment on this.

The "fact" they said they remembered the path on the north side does not make it a "fact" that the plane was actually there.

Using your logic the "fact" that they said it impacted the Pentagon makes the noc calim "irrelevant" as well.

You can't have it both ways. You can choose to believe one or the other, but don't go throwing around words like "facts" when they are anything but.

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Aldo Marquis CIT
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Reddawn
Jan 28 2008, 09:06 PM
Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 12:10 PM
The witnesses saw it on the north side, that is FACT. If they saw it on the north side, their belief (Sgt Brooks changed his belief) that it hit the building is irrelevant.

I'm late to the thread but I had to comment on this.

The "fact" they said they remembered the path on the north side does not make it a "fact" that the plane was actually there.

Using your logic the "fact" that they said it impacted the Pentagon makes the noc calim "irrelevant" as well.

You can't have it both ways. You can choose to believe one or the other, but don't go throwing around words like "facts" when they are anything but.

What makes it "fact" then? The approval of some anonymous, goal post moving, dishonest, illogical, reachy, desperate, psychotic scumbags on a forum?

Were you there? Can you point out the gov't response to these witnesses? Or are they just ignoring us and relying the confusion created by anonymous goal post moving, dishonest, illogical, reachy, desperate, psychotic scumbags on a forum to cast enough doubt and confusion that it might just cause people to give up on the info?

When does it become fact? When you say so? When we get your approval?

Again, the impact is irrelevant in comparison to the fact that the plane was on the north side.

Your stupid jedi mind tricks aren't working.
Edited by Aldo Marquis CIT, Jan 29 2008, 10:00 AM.
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nicepants

Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 11:27 PM
What makes it "fact" then? The approval of some anonymous, goal post moving, dishonest, illogical, reachy, desperate, psychotic scumbags on a forum?
No....it's a FACT if it's true. And something doesn't become true just because a bunch of people say it is..

FYI: the personal attacks don't help get your point across. (unless your point is that you don't have the facts to back up your claims so you must resort to personal attacks instead)
Edited by nicepants, Jan 29 2008, 09:47 AM.
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Reddawn

Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 11:27 PM
Your stupid jedi mind tricks aren't working.
Brilliant retort.

Here's a reminder re: the OP.

104 people directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.

26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.

39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.

2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.

7 said it was a Boeing 757.

8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.

2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.

4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.

10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).

16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.

42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.


2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.

15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.

3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.

3 took photographs of the aftermath.

Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."

And of course,

0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.

0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.
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Aldo Marquis CIT
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The witnesses were "validated", "confirmed", "proven" when they were corroborated 7 times over.
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nicepants

Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 29 2008, 10:09 AM
The witnesses were "validated", "confirmed", "proven" when they were corroborated 7 times over.
argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all (or 7) people believe it

It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Aldo Marquis CIT
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Quote:
 
Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 28 2008, 11:27 PM
Your stupid jedi mind tricks aren't working.
Brilliant retort.



No, here's a briiliant retort:

Quote:
 
Here's a reminder re: the OP.

104 people directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.


http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/43429/

That's not true, around and realistically less than 30 witnesses were in a position to actually see an "impact". Those accounts still do not constitute proof against the north side, since they do not directly contradict it nor have most of their claims been thoroughly investigated by questioning them in person. Not to mention some are simply dubious witnesses with very deceptive accounts and serious holes in their story.

Quote:
 
6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.


Can you be a little more vague and ambiguous? Are referring to people like Alan Wallace and Mark Skipper? They only thought they were going to get hit and began to run, I would too. Doesn't mean they witnessed an impact.

Alan Wallace:

So many people think Mark and I watched the plane hit the building. We did NOT.

We only saw it approach for an instant. I would estimate not longer than half a second. Others didn’t understand why we didn’t hear it sooner. We did not hear it until right after we saw it. I estimate that the plane hit the building only 1½-2 seconds after we saw it. What I am saying is, immediately after we saw it, we heard the noise; the engines, I’m sure. I described that as a terrible noise – loud, scary, and horrible. At the time we saw the plane I said, “LET’S GO!” and Mark and I ran away from the area. I turned and ran to my right, going north. (I do not remember which way Mark went, since I did not see him until I crawled out from under the Ford Van.)



Quote:
 
26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.


So? And many others described and were adamant it was something else. I'd say we have a conflict.

Quote:
 
39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.


Yup, can't disagree there.

Quote:
 
2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.


That's a pile of hooey. It was actually closer to 4-5. Why can't Gravy ever get his poop straight?

Quote:
 
7 said it was a Boeing 757.


Maybe it was. A handful of witnesses also said it looked like a or said it was a 737.

Quote:
 
8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.


Really? You verified that? All of it? Does it make a differenc? did you ask them about the north side of the Citgo approach? Oh you didn't? hmm ok.

One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief ALSO told us the plane approached on the NORTH SIDE of the CITGO and placed it near Robert's overhead sign.



Quote:
 
2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.


So many people think Mark and I watched the plane hit the building. We did NOT.

LOL.

Quote:
 
4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.


Did you ask them which side of the gas station the plane approached on? Oh you didn't?

Isn't it possible that they were fooled too and that simply typing "4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon" doesn't mean that they actually saw an impact?

Quote:
 
10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).


Wow. Talk about irrelevant minutia. This is the catherder technique Joe Quinn highlighted. Meaningless information mean to bulk up the information.

Then you (gravy) contradict yourself by saying that the landing gear struck a light pole. WHICH DID NOT HAPPEN.

Of course the flaps weren't deployed it was trying get in and out of there pretty damn fast.

Quote:
 
16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.


That is not true at all.

http://z3.invisionfree.com/CIT/index.php?showtopic=51

Why don't you list the names and accounts hmmmm? BETTER YET, WHY ARE YOU AND MARK ROBERTS SO COWARDLY THAT YOU WON'T ACTUALLY SPEAK WITH WITNESSES AND CONFIRM WHAT THEY SAID AND SAW???

Because clowns like Gravy rely on ambiguity and over confident statements. Knowing the disinformation will flourish regardless and most people will simply want to believe versus actually scrutinize them critically.


Quote:
 
42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.


So???? We have asserted that any plane debris could have been and more than likely was planted in advance due to the "renovation" which left unoccupied areas. Why weren't airline seats and engines visible on outside of the building? Why not luggage, clothing, mail? Where was the seats, seat mounts, overhead cabins that were located on the other side of this piece? Why didn't this piece of fuselage skin ever have rivets in it? Do they make planes without rivets now?

Posted Image
Posted Image

Are you saying that the members of the US military would not consider planting debris to simulate a plane crash?
Posted Image

Quote:
 
2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.



That's nice. Did you speak with them and confirm what they saw? Did you confirm that they saw that and not an office worker in a chair? Could they be lying? Yep. Could those bodies strapped in seats have been planted cadavers used as the final piece of convincing evidence used to sell the impact, no matter how bizarre or "counter-intuitive" the impact hole and debris pattern looked?


Quote:
 
15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.


Um that's because their was a generator trailer filled with diesel fuel that was burning oh and um... this:

Lt Col Ted Anderson: Nearby, tanks full of propane and aviation fuel had begun igniting, and they soon began exploding, one by one.

You forgot that 2 smelled cordite.

Quote:
 
3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.


Nice way to ambiguously blend that part about the light poles. Which cars were damaged by aircraft debris? Show me where Gravy confirmed that. Lloyd's account is preposterous and there is NO evidence to support it other than a photo of his cab and a light pole on the ground. Oh and did I mention that the plane was the NORTH SIDE OF THE CITGO and could NOT have hit any of those light poles, ESPECIALLY Lloyd's pole?

Quote:
 
3 took photographs of the aftermath.


So? What does that prove?

Quote:
 
Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."


So? What does that prove?

Quote:
 
And of course,

0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.


Totally agree.

Quote:
 
0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.


No. Not true, the media and authorities never reported witnesses who "saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away".

-Reporter Dave Statter interviewed but didn't REPORT a witness or witnesses who said "the pilot tried to avert the building" and "the plane went to the side of the building and not directly in".

-Robert Turcios said multiple times the plane pulled up into an ascent right before the Pentagon.

-Skarlet of Punkprincess.com wanted to say the plane "banked up at the very last minute."

-Bob Hunt reported witnesses saying the plane was 'over the Washington Mall at the height of the Washington Monument', that sounds like exactly where the plane would be after the flyover.

-The JEMS report stated: there was "a split-second decision by an air-traffic controller. When the hijacked
plane turned into the Pentagon, it was on a collision course with an airliner leaving Reagan National Airport as scheduled. Without the data from Flight 77’s transponder and not knowing the intention of the hijacked plane, the controller ordered the departing aircraft to take a hard right, into the protected airspace above the White House" http://info.jems.com/911/pdf/jems0402.pdf


This could only be an excuse for the flyover/away since planes were gounded because of national groundstop by 9:38 and could only be referring to the approach of the alleged impact plane as it reaches the Pentagon.







Edited by Aldo Marquis CIT, Jan 29 2008, 11:22 AM.
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Aldo Marquis CIT
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nicepants
Jan 29 2008, 10:15 AM
Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 29 2008, 10:09 AM
The witnesses were "validated", "confirmed", "proven" when they were corroborated 7 times over.
argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all (or 7) people believe it

It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
104 people directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


LOL.

You guys should read this post, it is priceless:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=26624&t=49055

You'd think that when we reach the point where it boils down to a latin debate term, that confirmation of specific details would be key, accepted and welcome. That confirmation coming in the form of multiple eyewitnesses on camera ON LOCATION nearest the event.

But naaaah, we've got Latin debate terms to tell us what happened at the Pentagon.

:D
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nicepants

Craig Ranke CIT
 
nicepants
Jan 29 2008, 10:15 AM
Aldo Marquis CIT
Jan 29 2008, 10:09 AM
The witnesses were "validated", "confirmed", "proven" when they were corroborated 7 times over.
argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all (or 7) people believe it

It is logically fallacious because the mere fact that a belief is widely held is not necessarily a guarantee that the belief is correct; if the belief of any individual can be wrong, then the belief held by multiple persons can also be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You guys should read this post, it is priceless:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=26624&t=49055



Oh yes, Stundie pulls out another strawman argument. Priceless, indeed. Stundie still doesn't understand that his statement: "They all agree, that is the proof that this claim is correct." is based on faulty logic.

Craig Ranke CIT
 
You'd think that when we reach the point where it boils down to a latin debate term, that confirmation of specific details would be key, accepted and welcome. That confirmation coming in the form of multiple eyewitnesses on camera ON LOCATION nearest the event.

But naaaah, we've got Latin debate terms to tell us what happened at the Pentagon.


The latin term describes the flaw in your logic. (And Stundie's, for that matter)
The whole point being, just because people agree doesn't mean that what they agree on is true.
If Latin bothers you, we can stick to English words like Red Herring.
Edited by nicepants, Jan 29 2008, 11:53 AM.
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IVXX
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MDCCLXXVI
A warning to all in this thread. The personal attacks continue an suspensions will be handed out to all involved.
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IVXX
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MDCCLXXVI
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR.
I look at the Pentagon from many different angles but I have to ask Bret08, you collected all the evidence listed above yourself?? I mean you did say "we have". Have you ever seen this evidence with your own eyes?? And I don't mean in a picture.

Bret08
 

many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building.


We go over this all the time. Please provide a list of people who actually saw impact. Many witnesses assumed impact because they were in no position to see it.
Edited by IVXX, Jan 29 2008, 01:22 PM.
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Craig Ranke CIT
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IVXX
Jan 29 2008, 01:22 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR.
I look at the Pentagon from many different angles but I have to ask Bret08, you collected all the evidence listed above yourself?? I mean you did say "we have". Have you ever seen this evidence with your own eyes?? And I don't mean in a picture.
Exactly!

The alleged DNA evidence is completely invalid for this investigation as all evidence is that was controlled solely by the suspect.

And that does not mean the entire forensic team who analyzed the DNA had to be in on the operation.

They were simply handed plastic baggies with ashes in them and told to analyze it.

Nobody knows for sure where it came from.
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Bret08
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repeated trolling offender
IVXX
Jan 29 2008, 01:22 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR.
I look at the Pentagon from many different angles but I have to ask Bret08, you collected all the evidence listed above yourself?? I mean you did say "we have". Have you ever seen this evidence with your own eyes?? And I don't mean in a picture.

Bret08
 

many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building.


We go over this all the time. Please provide a list of people who actually saw impact. Many witnesses assumed impact because they were in no position to see it.
Lagasse and Brooks saw impact. Please explain how they can think a plane crashed into the pentagon, if it really didn't. The plane hits the building before the explosion, so they have a clear view. No one would assume the plane hit the building, if it really didn't.
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Domenick DiMaggio

Bret08
Jan 29 2008, 07:44 PM
IVXX
Jan 29 2008, 01:22 PM
Bret08
Jan 28 2008, 02:55 PM
We have DNA, boeing 757-200 parts, FDR.
I look at the Pentagon from many different angles but I have to ask Bret08, you collected all the evidence listed above yourself?? I mean you did say "we have". Have you ever seen this evidence with your own eyes?? And I don't mean in a picture.

Bret08
 

many witnesses, including noc witnesses, who saw plane hit building.


We go over this all the time. Please provide a list of people who actually saw impact. Many witnesses assumed impact because they were in no position to see it.
Lagasse and Brooks saw impact. Please explain how they can think a plane crashed into the pentagon, if it really didn't. The plane hits the building before the explosion, so they have a clear view. No one would assume the plane hit the building, if it really didn't.
"please explain"

"please explain"

"please explain"


Since I already gave you a full rebuttal to which you did not reply in any shape or form can we all assume that you concede that I am correct in my counter arguments or will I receive a due reply?

Until you answer this I have no intentions of 'entertaining' you any further.........



edit : correction - you did reply. can i get a legitimate reply to each statement or do you agree with it as a whole?
Edited by Domenick DiMaggio, Jan 29 2008, 08:57 PM.
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Reddawn

Craig Ranke CIT
Jan 29 2008, 02:20 PM
Exactly!

The alleged DNA evidence is completely invalid for this investigation as all evidence is that was controlled solely by the suspect.

And this is where your entire argument goes to shreds.

You're basically saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you won't accept ANY evidence as accurate from the people you are accusing of the "crime."

But, who are you accusing? The "Gubmint"??

That's not an accusation. That's simply a sweeping generalized statement.

Hell, even some some of your star witnesses work for the "Gubmint."

And, again, are you accusing EVERYONE in the chain of custody of the DNA evidence as being part of the plot? Or just some? Which ones? How would that work exactly?

Back to your comment which I find so intereresting. It was,

"The alleged DNA evidence is completely invalid for this investigation as all evidence is that was controlled solely by the suspect."

What exactly do you mean by the word "alleged"?

Do you mean they didn't have any evidence or that it was forged?

This is an important distinction.

Does everyone who you decide is a "suspect" then make any and all evidence thay might have "invalid?"

Hell, just blame everyone and you can exclude their testimony/witnesses, right?

So, can you provide a hypothesis as to how they could have pulled off the DNA fraud? I'm not talking about all of the other details, just the DNA fraud.

Extradordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
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