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WTC 7 Connection Speculation
Topic Started: Aug 14 2010, 04:21 AM (874 Views)
Wormsaregood

Hello,

I haven't really posted on this forum much but it seems to be a lot more lively than the infowars forums regarding 9/11.

I saw this post and I simply had to ask a question and pose a theory of my own. I realize this has probably already been mentioned and/or disproven..but here goes.

In this demolition video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YvrKfWkxdw), which was shown here already, we see the firemen and then hear the explosion.

I looked around and saw this website http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video Which seems to try to "somewhat" debunk the video, on the grounds of "not enough information." They give a time frame of when they think the video was shot - "Estimating sun positions from shadows on grainy videos is never going to be an exact science, but WilliamSeger's 10:20 to 10:50 timeframe is a strikingly good match for the "9/11: Stories from the City" placement of 10:15 to 10:28. "

Now, I realize this doesn't give us much beyond what you guys have discussed.

But here's where I wanted to pose a question and get peoples take on it. http://911blogger.com/node/16573

The Barry Jennings interview by the guys at Loose Change.

Notice at the 15:59 mark they begin talking about the explosion that Barry felt in WTC 7. The interesting thing is, he confirms that the explosion happened BEFORE both buildings came down. If the first building came down at 9:59 am, isn't that pretty close to the 10:15 time estimate? Notice that, indeed, that source quotes two different sun times, with a 5 - 22 minute difference between them. It could actually mean that the explosion could have taken place maybe 9:55-9:58 a.m., which would be at most a 20 minute difference from the pictures and the sun estimations. If this was the case, then perhaps the explosion video actually proves that Barry Jennings DID hear an explosion and that an explosion DID indeed occur?

What do you guys think? Has this connection ever been made?
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Miragememories
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Wormsaregood
 
"But here's where I wanted to pose a question and get peoples take on it. http://911blogger.com/node/16573

The Barry Jennings interview by the guys at Loose Change.

Notice at the 15:59 mark they begin talking about the explosion that Barry felt in WTC 7. The interesting thing is, he confirms that the explosion happened BEFORE both buildings came down. If the first building came down at 9:59 am, isn't that pretty close to the 10:15 time estimate? Notice that, indeed, that source quotes two different sun times, with a 5 - 22 minute difference between them. It could actually mean that the explosion could have taken place maybe 9:55-9:58 a.m., which would be at most a 20 minute difference from the pictures and the sun estimations. If this was the case, then perhaps the explosion video actually proves that Barry Jennings DID hear an explosion and that an explosion DID indeed occur?

What do you guys think? Has this connection ever been made?"


The background damage in the video is substantial, and combined with the post-collapse appearance of the firefighters,
indicates at least one of the towers has already collapsed.

Barry's story describes a timeline that places the explosion he witnessed, as being significantly earlier then 9:59 a.m.

What you propose is also very problematic for other reasons.

First of all, Barry was certain that WTC 1 and WTC 2 were both standing when he and Mr. Hess broke out the windows on the 8th floor, after he had witnessed the explosion from his location in the 6th floor stairwell.

Secondly, WTC 2, which collapsed at 9:59 a.m. was the most distant of the Twin WTC Towers.

The reach of it's collapse debris is not a good fit with what Barry experienced in his distant, sheltered location in the WTC7 6th floor stairwell.

The most popular of the Official Conspiracy Theory arguments attempt to rebut Barry's testimony by claiming the explosion he experienced was debris fall from the collapse of WTC 1 at 10:28 a.m.

So, if those sun shadow estimates are accurate, the explosion heard in that video is not a good fit with Barry's testimony.

But.

The video shows much background damage and yet reasonable visibility. To me, this suggests a time very close to when WTC 1 collapsed.

A popular theory amongst 9/11 Truth advocates is that the controlled demolition collapse of WTC7 was intended to occur during the blinding collapse of WTC 1, but malfunctioned.

The explosion we hear in this video might represent a second premature detonation (Barry Jennings having experienced the first), and also provide a clue as to why WTC7 failed to collapse along side of WTC 1, and delayed its successful controlled demolition until 7 hours later.

MM
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The Surgeon

Quote:
 
A popular theory amongst 9/11 Truth advocates is that the controlled demolition collapse of WTC7 was intended to occur during the blinding collapse of WTC 1, but malfunctioned.

The explosion we hear in this video might represent a second premature detonation (Barry Jennings having experienced the first), and also provide a clue as to why WTC7 failed to collapse along side of WTC 1, and delayed its successful controlled demolition until 7 hours later.

I support this theory. Supporting evidence for this theory is that WTC 7's fire alarm system had one alarm at 10:00 AM, when WTC 2 collapsed. And yes, only ONE alarm that day.

Since the fire alarm system was in test mode, any alarms would not be seen by the fire monitoring station. Any explosions (which would trigger smoke / heat / gas alarms) also would not be recorded.

See my post for more info.
WTC 7 Fire Alarm System Shut Down on 9/11

IMHO, it makes no sense for WTC 7 to collapse so late in the day. If WTC 7 was brought down when WTC 1 went down, we would all be staring at photos and videos 9 years later of a huge dust cloud with the missing WTC 7 hidden from view :hmmm: :hmmm:
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Oystein

Prior to the first collapse, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of responders rushing towards the WTC, and people were at the same time evacuating the various buildings, leaving the scene.

It seems, Jennings and Hess were alone in WTC7 at the time they experienced that "explosion" somewhere between 6th and 8th floor, that rendered the staircase they were in unpassable. If other people had been up there, somebody might have noticed.
So you need to synch Jennings account with what else we may know about the evactaution og WTC7.

However, there were people in the lobby: It was used by Emergency Medical folks to treat injured people from WTC1 and 2 (how had been hit by debris or fallen while running away etc.). An explosion this loud on the street blocks away would not have gone unnoticed by those responders in the WTC7 lobby, had it occurred on one of the lower floors of that building.
You should be able to corroborate the claim that Jennings explosion took place before the first collapse with the witness statements of people in the lobby.

Jennings never had a frame of reference for his story after he heard of the first plane impact (and was told it was a Cessna). Years later, he thinks he remembers seeing both towers still standing when on the 8th floor. However we know they broke a window on the north side, away from the twin towers, from where you can't see them. At the time, he had no reason to take special note of the fact that the towers were standing. He didn't realise they had collapsed until MUCH later, when he finally got home. It is by no means rasonable that this particular memory got inserted retroactively and is not real.Here is a man, deeply shaken by his experiences, frightened, confused, struggling to make sense of it all.



Years ago, we had a fairly strong earthquake in my home region, in the very early morning when most people still sleep.
At lunchtime, I heard two men talking. One had completely missed the rattling (I guess he lived a bit away), and asked his buddy: How long did it shake? And the other man said: "Oh, not very long at all. Only maybe 2 minutes". Actually, the quake lasted 10-14 seconds (depending on your local geology and distance from epicenter). Just to highlight the reliability of time estimates given by untrained witnesses for rare and disturbing events. That man was off by a factor of 8 to 12.
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Miragememories
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Oystein
 
"It seems, Jennings and Hess were alone in WTC7 at the time they experienced that "explosion" somewhere between 6th and 8th floor, that rendered the staircase they were in unpassable. If other people had been up there, somebody might have noticed."

http://www.youtube.com/user/IC911STUDIES#p/u/3/-XOK-r80nr8

Interview with one of Barry Jennings & Michael Hess's rescuers;

Posted Image
[00:01:02 into video clip]

"We couldn't get to them. We went through the building. We were lost.
Both staircases...the backsides were completely blown away..there
was no way to access..we couldn't get to them..and finally one of the
fire department teams found them, but we didn't think they were going to make it"


Oystein
 
"However we know they broke a window on the north side, away from the twin towers, from where you can't see them."

Barry Jennings
 
"Uh..I asked Mr. Hess to test the phones as I took a fire extinguisher and broke out the windows.
Once I broke out the windows..."

No other evidence of a second nearby 8th floor northside broken window existed at that time
but there is at least one 8th floor eastside window that appears broken. From the eastside, Barry would have been able to see WTC2.

Unfortunately, the Barry Jennings interview suffers from undisciplined interviewing technique.
Barry tends to skip over important chronological details and is somewhat helter skelter in how
he lists what he felt were the important and interesting events he observed. As a result, the interview leaves too many unanswered questions. Answers which Barry Jennings took with him to his grave R.I.P.

A few days later, the NIST decided to release their Final Draft Report on the Collapse of WTC7 for public evaluation and comment.

Barry was insistent that he heard internal WTC7 explosions throughout is entrapment and that
WTC1 and WTC2 were still standing when he and Mr. Hess arrived on the 8th floor.

MM
Edited by Miragememories, Sep 11 2010, 06:33 PM.
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Oystein

The rescuer appeared at the scene after Jennings and Hess had retreated from the staircase to the 8th floor, broken a window and made themselves noticed. I was talking of the time while they were still inside the staircase and heard the noise.

You are probably aware of video footage showing Mr. Hess in a broken window on the 8th floor on the north side. Guess Hennings was simply mistaken when using the plural of "window".

I am sure Jennings heard loud, scary noises.
I doubt however that he would have committed the sighting of two towers standing to memory: Since he was not informed about the severity of the first impact (he heard "Cessna"), and may not even have known about the second impact, seeing the towers standing would have been wholly unremarkable to him. That impression would be very weak compared to the much more frightning other experiences.
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Miragememories
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Oystein
 
"The rescuer appeared at the scene after Jennings and Hess had retreated from the staircase to the 8th floor, broken a window and made themselves noticed. I was talking of the time while they were still inside the staircase and heard the noise.

You are probably aware of video footage showing Mr. Hess in a broken window on the 8th floor on the north side. Guess Hennings was simply mistaken when using the plural of "window".

I am sure Jennings heard loud, scary noises.
I doubt however that he would have committed the sighting of two towers standing to memory: Since he was not informed about the severity of the first impact (he heard "Cessna"), and may not even have known about the second impact, seeing the towers standing would have been wholly unremarkable to him. That impression would be very weak compared to the much more frightning other experiences."

The "noise"?

I believe Barry described it as a loud explosion.

Hennings?

Barry Jennings, twice referred to "windows", as in plural.

Barry was rather emphatic that he knew an explosion when he heard one. No doubt, a nearby explosion would be perceived as a "loud, scary noise."

Why would you doubt Barry Jenning's determination that both Towers were standing? Do you know him so well that you can make such an assumption?

Oystein
 
"Since he was not informed about the severity of the first impact (he heard "Cessna"), and may not even have known about the second impact, seeing the towers standing would have been wholly unremarkable to him. That impression would be very weak compared to the much more frightning other experiences."

Possibly you have forgotten the part of the interview where Barry indicated that he went home and watched constant news coverage of the 9/11 events for the rest of the day?

As I recall the TV Networks covered the details of the WTC Twin Towers attacks ad nauseum. It would seem unlikely that Barry was unable to fill in the missing gaps after submitting himself to nonstop 9/11 news coverage for the rest of that day.

MM
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Oystein

Miragememories
Sep 11 2010, 06:47 PM
Oystein
 
"The rescuer appeared at the scene after Jennings and Hess had retreated from the staircase to the 8th floor, broken a window and made themselves noticed. I was talking of the time while they were still inside the staircase and heard the noise.

You are probably aware of video footage showing Mr. Hess in a broken window on the 8th floor on the north side. Guess Hennings was simply mistaken when using the plural of "window".

I am sure Jennings heard loud, scary noises.
I doubt however that he would have committed the sighting of two towers standing to memory: Since he was not informed about the severity of the first impact (he heard "Cessna"), and may not even have known about the second impact, seeing the towers standing would have been wholly unremarkable to him. That impression would be very weak compared to the much more frightning other experiences."

The "noise"?

I believe Barry described it as a loud explosion.

Hennings?

Barry Jennings, twice referred to "windows", as in plural.

Barry was rather emphatic that he knew an explosion when he heard one. No doubt, a nearby explosion would be perceived as a "loud, scary noise."

Why would you doubt Barry Jenning's determination that both Towers were standing? Do you know him so well that you can make such an assumption?

Oystein
 
"Since he was not informed about the severity of the first impact (he heard "Cessna"), and may not even have known about the second impact, seeing the towers standing would have been wholly unremarkable to him. That impression would be very weak compared to the much more frightning other experiences."

Possibly you have forgotten the part of the interview where Barry indicated that he went home and watched constant news coverage of the 9/11 events for the rest of the day?

As I recall the TV Networks covered the details of the WTC Twin Towers attacks ad nauseum. It would seem unlikely that Barry was unable to fill in the missing gaps after submitting himself to nonstop 9/11 news coverage for the rest of that day.

MM
Oh he definitely "was able to fill in the gaps".
And that is precisely the problem. It is something that routinely happenes to our memory: We fill in blanks with information we receive from elsewhere - or with what me make of such second-hand information.
The content with which we fill the gaps is not true memory of the event, but we think it is. It may be right, or could be wrong.

I was once knocked over by a car and was unconscious for a day. I was crossing an intersection with traffic lights on my bike. My own memory ended something on the order of 10 seconds before the accident. I later recosntructed that the driver must have turned into the low sun, and probably was blinded by it and thus did not see me. I "remember" to this day this snapshot of a lean man in a red car, squinting eyes.
The car of course wasn't red. And I am totally sure that this "memory" is not memory at all but reconstruction.

I witnessed an accident on the highway some years ago. Gave the guy whose car got damaged my number, and when I got home, 20 minutes later, I immediately sat down and wrote down every detail I could remember. The ony thing I did not write down was a description of the guilty driver (a small, thin, weathered man with reddish hair).
Weeks later, I was asked by police to mail a witness statement. I just pulled my saved file and sent it.
Again weeks later, I was asked to go to a police station and testify orally.
Months later, I has to appear in court to testify. Just before the court session, I re-read my old notes.
Three suprises:
a) I remembered some things slightly different than I had written down
b) I remembered much more than I had written down
c) In the courtroom, the defendant didn't look at all the way I remembered: somewhat overweight, jung-looking, well groomed, dark hair!
(They didn't ask me if I recognized the person; he admitted to having driven that car, identified by license number, there and then)


I tell you what: I don't have to know Barry to be skeptical of his recollection. I don't even trust my own ;)
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