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| 84 RADES data and speed of flight 77 | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 4 2008, 05:36 PM (1,852 Views) | |
| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 05:36 PM Post #1 |
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Flight 77's final speed calculated from the RADES data. NOTE: A level flight path is assumed between the 2 points. In the top of the image below the pinkish circles represent the data aquistion points. In the center is the pertinant data from those points. At the bottom is the RADES calculator with the lat / long figures entered with the result being displayed in feet.  The distance between point a and point b is 6619.681 feet. The time it took to get from point a to point b is 11.915 seconds. There are 5280 feet in a mile. There are 60 seconds in a minute. There are 60 minutes in an hour. so the formula would be : (( distance / 5280 ) * ( 60 / time )) * 60 = MPH Plug the numbers in and you get : (( 6619.681 / 5280) * ( 60 / 11.915 )) * 60 ( 1.2537274621 * 5.04 ) * 60 6.318786408984 * 60 Which is 379.13 MPH. Please correct me if I am wrong. |
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| Reheat | Jun 4 2008, 06:14 PM Post #2 |
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Reheat
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First of all, radar is not very accurate at low altitude. This is merely a guesstimate at best. No one should have a high degree of confidence in the numbers. If you want someone to verify your math, you're very close. I do it this way, it's simpler. 6619.681 / 11.915 = 555.57 fps (555.57 * 60) * 60 = 2000052 fph 2000052 / 5280 = 378.79 MPH = 329.177 KTS ETA: That's likely the speed when it was lost on radar and not the final speed, but I haven't plotted the coordinates to verify that. I doubt radar could track it all the way to the Pentagon. Edit by JFK - cleaning up quotes because no one else is in this thread yet. Edited by JFK, Jun 4 2008, 08:55 PM.
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| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 06:39 PM Post #3 |
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Thanks for the shortcut... The rades data does show what appears to be the 2 "fragments" which are visable in those 5 unauthorized released frames.  If you look close at the top of the 84 RADES software image I posted you can see them. Using your bank angle calculator set to the speed above with a 10 degree bank angle and a 160 MPH stall speed I get roughly a 10 mile radius. Is that correct ? |
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| Reheat | Jun 4 2008, 07:17 PM Post #4 |
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Reheat
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That's not RADES info, that's the Security Camera video from the Pentagon. You can't use that calculator? Edited by JFK, Jun 4 2008, 08:55 PM.
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| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 07:44 PM Post #5 |
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No kidding..... I am in the process of plotting the info on google maps and scratch my last post. The following is the 2 points referred to in my opening post :   These were derived using this calculator for converting to decimal lat/longs - http://www.uky.edu/KGS/gis/converter.htm And entering the result into google maps url manually like this - http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=+38.868218,-77.060973&spn=0.153886,0.361176&z=12 and zooming in without moving the map. Now comes the weird part.... What I assumed was 77's fragments plot like this :    I am reminded of an episode of candid camera I saw when I was a kid and a car splits in two, goes around a policeman and rejoins after. < scratches head > |
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| Reheat | Jun 4 2008, 07:45 PM Post #6 |
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Reheat
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I just checked those coordinates and the closest point is over 2 miles SW of the Pentagon. That is not even close to the final speed according to all of the other info. |
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| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 07:48 PM Post #7 |
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At this point I really don't care about "other info". I want to know what the RADES data is saying. |
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| Reheat | Jun 4 2008, 07:51 PM Post #8 |
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Reheat
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Nope. Those are NOT decimal coordinates, they are degrees, minutes, and DECIMAL SECONDS. If you enter them in GE as they are listed it will calculate correctly with the closest point 2.14 miles SW. Edited by JFK, Jun 4 2008, 08:56 PM.
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| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 08:01 PM Post #9 |
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Obviously you need to go back and reread my post reheat.  I just tested my methods by obtaining the decimal lat/long for the washington monument from this page - http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=38.88947&mapit=Map+It&lon=-77.03524&size=m&s=25&datum=WGS84 The result -  So unless the calculator I used to convert to decimal is off, those results are as accurate as the RADES data. |
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| Reheat | Jun 4 2008, 08:19 PM Post #10 |
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Reheat
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OK, the calculator should be correct. My point was that there is no need to convert them. Just an extra unnecessary step for allowing a data entry error. Have at it. The RADES data at altitudes above 2-3000' depending on the range from the antenna should be good, but at low altitude it is virtually worthless. Edited by JFK, Jun 4 2008, 08:56 PM.
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| JFK | Jun 4 2008, 08:52 PM Post #11 |
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Actually for google maps you DO need to convert them.... Google maps can't, to the best of my knowledge, handle degrees and minutes and seconds for lat/longs. Google earth on the other hand can. For my purposes I want anyone to be able to replicate what I am doing whithout the need for a bulky download. If that means another calculation, so be it. So what you are saying is that any terrorist can hijack an airliner and fly it below 2k feet and search radar is worthless ? In the DC area ? Do you have any idea how ludicrious that sounds ? I could understand that statement if we were discussing a place in the Rocky Mountains.... But not DC. I think I'll look for another calculator, Thank you very much.  |
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| JFK | Jun 5 2008, 02:42 PM Post #12 |
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77's spiral data taken from the 84 RADES Shanksville CD....
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| JFK | Jun 5 2008, 06:55 PM Post #13 |
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For the following chart the "3d radar range calculator" which is a part of the 84 RADES RS3 software package was used to determine the distance in feet between the plot points. The rest of the calculations were done with the Windows calculator using the following formula. ((( distance in feet / 5280 ) * ( 60 / elapsed time )) * 60 ) = MPH Distances in feet - Distance in miles 6102.475 - 1.155771780303030303030303030303 6846.578 - 1.2967003787878787878787878787879 7378.655 - 1.3974725378787878787878787878788 7376.115 - 1.3969914772727272727272727272727 6147.293 - 1.1642600378787878787878787878788 6745.202 - 1.2775003787878787878787878787879 6623.855 - 1.2545179924242424242424242424242 6744.548 - 1.2773765151515151515151515151515 6444.75 - 1.2205965909090909090909090909091 5423.063 - 1.0270952651515151515151515151515 5375.982 - 1.0181784090909090909090909090909 4960.209 - 0.93943352272727272727272727272727 5882.601 - 1.1141289772727272727272727272727 5972.211 - 1.1311005681818181818181818181818 4098.695 - 0.77626799242424242424242424242424 6509.818 - 1.2329200757575757575757575757576 5713.287 - 1.0820619318181818181818181818182 7889.516 - 1.4942265151515151515151515151515 6622.525 - 1.2542660984848484848484848484848 Elapsed time - 60 divided by elapsed time 11.95 - 5.0209205020920502092050209205021 11.825 - 5.0739957716701902748414376321353 12.09 - 4.962779156327543424317617866005 11.855 - 5.0611556305356389708983551244201 11.925 - 5.0314465408805031446540880503145 12.045 - 4.98132004981320049813200498132 11.97 - 5.0125313283208020050125313283208 12.015 - 4.9937578027465667915106117353308 11.88 - 5.0505050505050505050505050505051 11.95 - 5.0209205020920502092050209205021 11.905 - 5.0398992020159596808063838723226 11.88 - 5.0505050505050505050505050505051 11.815 - 5.0782903089293271265340668641557 11.915 - 5.035669324381032312211498111624 11.84 - 5.0675675675675675675675675675676 11.84 - 5.0675675675675675675675675675676 11.84 - 5.0675675675675675675675675675676 11.88 - 5.0505050505050505050505050505051 11.915 - 5.035669324381032312211498111624 Speed in MPH 348.18229364777481932293647774818 394.76713434556986354026523159686 416.1208549515001127904353710803 424.2234768605498255434990989607 351.47472841623785020011435105748 381.81829503000113211819313936348 377.29864433811802232854864433798 382.7345363749858131880603790714 369.87775482093663911845730027545 309.41782046405477367820464054758 307.89099308922912450841892253033 284.67682506887052341597796143242 339.47222329088600777132304851279 341.75090603898828825391981078066 236.02743012899262899262899262889 374.87434735872235872235872235851 329.00531710687960687960687960679 452.79591368227731864095500459121 378.96415900507381833441422195068 NOTE : a level flight path was assumed for the above calculations... Also the curvature of the radius of the spiral was NOT taken into account.  A Google maps map with the path plotted will follow as soon as it is finished. |
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| JFK | Jun 5 2008, 11:47 PM Post #14 |
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 A two mile radius on the spiral.  < scratches head > |
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| SPreston | Jun 6 2008, 08:22 AM Post #15 |
Patriotic American
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A blistering 90 degree bank of the 500+ mph commercial aircraft? Actually nobody reported any 757 wings (According to our resident government loyalists, commercial aircraft wings will fall off if the bank and speed are too extreme or pitch is too great) nor engines crashing into the ground on the morning of 9-11-2001 in the area of Alexandria, Springfield, Annandale, Crystal City, or Falls Church. In fact there was not one single eyewitness report, photo, nor video of the awesome sight of a screaming AA 757 in a diving jet fighter turn over Alexandria, Fairfax, and Arlington Counties. Hundreds of thousands of people live down there below that official Flight 77 loop southwest of the Pentagon. I guess it just never happened. The FBI must have forgotten to script some more witnesses. Maybe some of the USA Today shills called in sick that day. C-130 flight path (Yellow line) - Faked RADES C-130 flight path (blue) - Faked Flight 77 (red) - Decoy aircraft spotted by O'Brien to the west after C-130 passed the Mall  The loop witnessed by nobody created by alleged Flight 77 FDR and 84 RADES data 
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| JFK | Jun 6 2008, 09:28 AM Post #16 |
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http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html Damn calculator..... The aircraft crashes and burns no matter what numbers I plug in to fit the spiral.
Edited by JFK, Jun 6 2008, 09:29 AM.
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| JFK | Jun 6 2008, 10:04 AM Post #17 |
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Actually the average speed during the spiral is about 380 MPH. I'll do a proper calculation on that later. At the 2 narrowest points of the plot it is about 4 miles.... By Google maps scale. I'll do a proper calculation on that also later. Within this "width" of the spiral Hanni did a 180 degree turn...... And according to reheats bank calculator the "Islamic radicals" once again defied the laws of physics. Edit to add - The 2 points at # 7 and # 15 in the above chart is the end points of the 180 degree turn. That gives a time difference of 1 minute 35.330 seconds. The distance between those points is 25991.553 feet according to the 84 RADES 3d Radar range calculator. which works out to 4.9 miles. The average speed for those points is 321 MPH. In this graphic, the green hilites are the best match with known data and the yellow is the problem area.  Edited by JFK, Jun 6 2008, 10:48 AM.
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| JFK | Jun 6 2008, 10:18 PM Post #18 |
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2 MB plot for 77's spiral. Edit to add - Since imageshack apparently "pulled" it here is another copy. http://i27.tinypic.com/1zgrimq.png Edited by JFK, Sep 16 2009, 10:11 AM.
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| JFK | Jun 7 2008, 01:23 PM Post #19 |
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Isn't it amazing how quiet this thread is ? |
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| Aldo Marquis CIT | Jun 7 2008, 04:10 PM Post #20 |
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So would Reheat have to say that the spiral was "aerodynamically impossible"? Is that what you guys are getting at? |
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| JFK | Jun 7 2008, 04:19 PM Post #21 |
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Hey, I used his calculator and the 84 RADES numbers.... < shrugs > Math doesn't lie.... right ?
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| Reheat | Jun 7 2008, 06:58 PM Post #22 |
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Reheat
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When it's done correctly, no it doesn't. |
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| JFK | Jun 7 2008, 07:28 PM Post #23 |
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Well, I don't see you plugging any numbers into that calculator.
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| JFK | Jun 8 2008, 11:16 AM Post #24 |
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OK, I fixed MY error.... Still no joy.
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| JFK | Dec 1 2008, 09:14 AM Post #25 |
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Welcome Mr. FAA person. If you can answer the above dilemma, please create an account and post. 
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2:06 AM Dec 7
