The Burning Vehicles at Ground Zero

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The Burning Vehicles at Ground Zero; Slide Show
Topic Started: Nov 29 2009, 04:53 PM (176 Views)
DoYouEverWonder	Nov 29 2009, 04:53 PM Post #1
Posts: 437 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	A number of vehicles around the WTC caught fire during the attack. In order to understand why some vehicles caught fire, it is important to collect as much evidence as possible. The slide show at the link is a collection of the visual evidence. I've tried to put them in (sort of) chronological order and when possible by location. The idea is to create a virtual walking tour through the damage. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v411/DoYouEverWonder/WTC%20-%20Burning%20Cars/?albumview=slideshow This is a work in progress. If anyone has any info or corrections please let me know, so that I can update the data. I've been able to map about half of the images. The other half I'm still working on and if anyone can id the locations or correct anything I've already identified, I would greatly appreciate it. Enjoy! Edited by DoYouEverWonder, Nov 29 2009, 07:51 PM.
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tuatara	Nov 29 2009, 09:52 PM Post #2
Posts: 199 Group: Members Member #1,046 Joined: 02/02/09	That's a great collection DYEW - I found all the photos that I know of burning cars and saw quite a few I hadn't seen before. As ever I was struck by the number of burnt cars and the amount of unburnt paper ......
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DoYouEverWonder	Nov 29 2009, 10:33 PM Post #3
Posts: 437 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	tuatara Nov 29 2009, 09:52 PM That's a great collection DYEW - I found all the photos that I know of burning cars and saw quite a few I hadn't seen before. As ever I was struck by the number of burnt cars and the amount of unburnt paper ...... Most of the vehicles are near pieces of aluminum cladding. At first I thought the cars caught fire because of hot or burning aluminum that fell down. But if the aluminum was hot enough to ignite cars, then it would have ignited a lot of the paper too. Is it possible that some of the thermite continued to react with the metal objects, but not with the paper or concrete?
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tuatara	Nov 30 2009, 01:57 AM Post #4
Posts: 199 Group: Members Member #1,046 Joined: 02/02/09	I've always thought that the fires were caused by a chemical reaction rather than through heat given that I can't recall seeing accounts of people being affected by burns in the dust cloud. Also the cars on fire in the West car park were further from the towers than Building Seven so that is a long distance for "heat" to travel.
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InsideJobSept11	Nov 30 2009, 03:49 AM Post #5
Posts: 3 Group: BANNED! Member #1,489 Joined: 11/28/09	Did anyone ever think that small gasoline tanks might have been planted in the cars for them to burn?
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T3QuillAMocKINGbird	Nov 30 2009, 05:13 PM Post #6
Posts: 95 Group: Members Member #1,119 Joined: 04/07/09	tuatara Nov 30 2009, 01:57 AM I've always thought that the fires were caused by a chemical reaction rather than through heat given that I can't recall seeing accounts of people being affected by burns in the dust cloud. Also the cars on fire in the West car park were further from the towers than Building Seven so that is a long distance for "heat" to travel. One of the EMT's Fireproof Turncoats actually caught on fire as she ran from the cloud. Her account is somewhere on this board and she was the one that witnessed the flashes in building 6 and the officials that kept her out of the building when she wanted to run for cover.
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chrisfarb	Nov 30 2009, 05:25 PM Post #7
Posts: 140 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: 01/15/08	InsideJobSept11 Nov 30 2009, 03:49 AM Did anyone ever think that small gasoline tanks might have been planted in the cars for them to burn? Sorry you are banned but I was thinking the same thing. Maybe some New Yorkers seized the opportunity to collect on insurance? The car fires don't make sense.
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DoYouEverWonder	Nov 30 2009, 05:37 PM Post #8
Posts: 437 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	T3QuillAMocKINGbird Nov 30 2009, 05:13 PM tuatara Nov 30 2009, 01:57 AM I've always thought that the fires were caused by a chemical reaction rather than through heat given that I can't recall seeing accounts of people being affected by burns in the dust cloud. Also the cars on fire in the West car park were further from the towers than Building Seven so that is a long distance for "heat" to travel. One of the EMT's Fireproof Turncoats actually caught on fire as she ran from the cloud. Her account is somewhere on this board and she was the one that witnessed the flashes in building 6 and the officials that kept her out of the building when she wanted to run for cover. That would be EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was on the west side of Vesey Street in front of WTC 6. It sounds like she was close enough to the cars to get scorched when they started blowing up. Quote: But I ran towards the West Side Highway, and I kept running up Vesey. As I was running up Vesey, the first car blew up on me on the corner of Vessey and the West Side Highway. That set my turnout coat on fire, that set my hair on fire, and that set my feet on fire. I kept running. I got news for you, those turn out coats need to be called burn out coats, cause this thing caught up in flames. They cut two inches off my hair in less that two minutes, my coat was completely engulfed, and that was the only way I could see where I was running at that point, because I had a glow from my coat. WTC Task Force Interview (pdf file) My Webpage
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DoYouEverWonder	Nov 30 2009, 07:57 PM Post #9
Posts: 437 Group: Members Member #206 Joined: 01/24/08	chrisfarb Nov 30 2009, 05:25 PM InsideJobSept11 Nov 30 2009, 03:49 AM Did anyone ever think that small gasoline tanks might have been planted in the cars for them to burn? Sorry you are banned but I was thinking the same thing. Maybe some New Yorkers seized the opportunity to collect on insurance? The car fires don't make sense. This sounds like something more was going on here then some opportunists torching a few cars, to cash out on an insurance claim in the middle of a national disaster - Quote: Ruiz then states, "I was trapped there. Like things weren't bad enough already, the car that's parked right on that corner catches on fire. I don't mean a little fire, the entire thing. Don't ask me how. The entire car caught on fire. You would think maybe just a motor part or just the engine part. But this entire car just goes up in fire." Robert Ruiz The question is what happened during the collapses that caused vehicles to spontaneously combust? Speculation - If thermite was used to cut key corners and columns, when the explosives in the core blew that could have sent some of the thermite, that was in the process of reacting, into the dust cloud. Is it feasible that this active thermite would continue to react if it found more metal to react with? If you look at the pictures of the cars in the West Street Parking lot the damage on most of them is from the top down. In some cases the bottom half of the vehicle aren't burnt. Edited by DoYouEverWonder, Nov 30 2009, 08:00 PM.
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chrisfarb	Nov 30 2009, 10:55 PM Post #10
Posts: 140 Group: Members Member #43 Joined: 01/15/08	DoYouEverWonder Nov 30 2009, 07:57 PM chrisfarb Nov 30 2009, 05:25 PM InsideJobSept11 Nov 30 2009, 03:49 AM Did anyone ever think that small gasoline tanks might have been planted in the cars for them to burn? Sorry you are banned but I was thinking the same thing. Maybe some New Yorkers seized the opportunity to collect on insurance? The car fires don't make sense. This sounds like something more was going on here then some opportunists torching a few cars, to cash out on an insurance claim in the middle of a national disaster - Quote: Ruiz then states, "I was trapped there. Like things weren't bad enough already, the car that's parked right on that corner catches on fire. I don't mean a little fire, the entire thing. Don't ask me how. The entire car caught on fire. You would think maybe just a motor part or just the engine part. But this entire car just goes up in fire." Robert Ruiz The question is what happened during the collapses that caused vehicles to spontaneously combust? Speculation - If thermite was used to cut key corners and columns, when the explosives in the core blew that could have sent some of the thermite, that was in the process of reacting, into the dust cloud. Is it feasible that this active thermite would continue to react if it found more metal to react with? If you look at the pictures of the cars in the West Street Parking lot the damage on most of them is from the top down. In some cases the bottom half of the vehicle aren't burnt. Now that makes pretty good sense, especially the scorched fire truck.
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Headspin	Dec 1 2009, 05:24 AM Post #11
Posts: 975 Group: Members Member #252 Joined: 01/31/08	DoYouEverWonder Nov 30 2009, 07:57 PM The question is what happened during the collapses that caused vehicles to spontaneously combust? Speculation - If thermite was used to cut key corners and columns, when the explosives in the core blew that could have sent some of the thermite, that was in the process of reacting, into the dust cloud. Is it feasible that this active thermite would continue to react if it found more metal to react with? If you look at the pictures of the cars in the West Street Parking lot the damage on most of them is from the top down. In some cases the bottom half of the vehicle aren't burnt. Given the apparent quantity of unreacted thermitic material in the dust, it seems likely this stuff originated over many floors, spray on fireproofing material seems an obvious explanation. the plane collision and building collapse would likely fragment a lot of it so it becomes an intrinsic part of the dust itself and would lay over the cars and streets etc. We do see red dust clouds as the south tower collapses and from the plane collision with the north tower. Given the higher density of the thermitic material compared to the other fibrous material etc in the dust, the thermitic material would likely be locally concentrated in the vicinity of the collapse footprint. "Is it feasible that this active thermite would continue to react if it found more metal to react with?" Thermite doesn't require additional metal to react/ignite, it needs temperature up to its ignition temperature. The heat produced by the reaction then softens/heats/melts the metal that it comes into contact with. The ignition temperature of this material found by Harrit et al is very low, only 420 C, so a cigarette or a match, maybe even burning paper floating down and landing on a dust covered car could have ignited the thermitic material in the dust layer on the cars. http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html A particle igniting could yield enough heat (thousands of degrees) to ignite another particle close by or produce a fire capable of igniting more thermitic dust. Thermitic dust could also explain the fierce and continuous underground fires reported, and the molten metal.
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JFK	Dec 1 2009, 11:26 AM Post #12
Posts: 4,226 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	chrisfarb Nov 30 2009, 10:55 PM Now that makes pretty good sense, especially the scorched fire truck. Actually since the early 1990's the firetruck manufacturers have been cramming more and more into an already tight engine compartment... My point is that I have personally repaired several relatively new firetrucks which have caught fire at the scene simply because there was no room left for air cooling around components. ( one of which was less than a month old ) Also the insulation they use for noise supression is extremely effective at containing that heat. For the pumps to work the engines must be running at a relatively high RPM. Without the normal airflow through the radiator while moving things get very hot very quickly. The vintage ( 1960's/1970's ) Maxim's with the Wakashaua ( spelling ? ) Gasoline engines actually had an asbestos wrap on the exhaust manifolds and a portion of the exhaust to direct the heat out the exhaust pipe... Since the ban on asbestos, those are now exposed. -- Just something to keep in the back of your mind.
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