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| Moved:plausible NoC flightpath? | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 29 2009, 12:42 AM (2,337 Views) | |
| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 12:42 AM Post #1 |
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hi guys.... i've seen the video National Security Alert, and i've been reading some of the threads here lately, but i'm not sure if this flightpath has been proposed before...??  Edward Paik Terry Morin: "it flew right over the top of me"  ANC witnesses saw the plane coming straight for them, then banking to the right  Officer William Lagasse: "maybe 60 feet in front of me" "the wind blast from the wing vortices knocked me into my vehicle" Officer Chadwick Brooks: "people asked me how close i was......almost if i had a rock i felt like i could hit it" "frozen in time, to see that plane just literally clip a lamp pole" Robert Turcios, Citgo employee: says the right wing was over the citgo station "I saw it lift up a little bit to get over the side of the bridge here" points to bridge overpass where Lloyd Englands car was hit by the pole...  damage to light poles, lloyd englands car....then the fence, the generator....and the pentagon.. witnesses say the plane was banking left as it hit the building.... |
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 12:50 AM Post #2 |
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I suggest you do some study on what a 757 is capable of at the speed at which it was going... And also you may want to research the scale of that map.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 12:58 AM Post #3 |
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i used a 3d model of a 757 to the scale of the map.....its actually a hair bigger so you could see it better.... perhaps if the path was smoothed out a bit? 
Edited by Pythagoras, Sep 29 2009, 01:03 AM.
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 01:05 AM Post #4 |
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That is still too radical and you have put it's path directly over the Citgo, which is what no one saw. On this plot - http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6772/masterplot2jn9.png - according to online aircraft turn calculators the turn between points 7 and 15 is impossible for a 757, compare that with your plot. ( The data for that plot came from the 84 RADES FOIA release ) |
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 01:06 AM Post #5 |
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sorry, i tried to do a quick edit 
Edited by Pythagoras, Sep 29 2009, 01:19 AM.
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 01:22 AM Post #6 |
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See this thread - http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/322707/1/ - and extrapolate your path's plausability from the info and tools in that thread. |
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| Lin Kuei | Sep 29 2009, 01:40 AM Post #7 |
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Exactly, there is absolutely no way a 757 could pull off changes to its heading as radical as that, within that short a distance, no matter what speed it was going - especially at the speed it was allegedly traveling, and most especially being able to impact with precision keeping a few feet off the lawn. |
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 02:06 AM Post #8 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXJuXOC4AKw Edited by Pythagoras, Sep 29 2009, 02:08 AM.
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 02:09 AM Post #9 |
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And what do you see in that video ? I see gear down and full flaps. Something which did not happen at the Pentagon. |
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 02:12 AM Post #10 |
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how fast was it going? some1 saw the flaps? Edited by Pythagoras, Sep 29 2009, 02:13 AM.
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 02:14 AM Post #11 |
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I have plotted speed in that thread and image I pointed you at earlier, and it was accelerating as it was coming over the Navy Annex. Who saw flaps ? Edited by JFK, Sep 29 2009, 02:15 AM.
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 02:37 AM Post #12 |
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Albert Hemphill, a BMDO (Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) staff member watched from from the Navy Annex: As I stood there, I instinctively ducked at the extremely loud roar and whine of a jet engine spooling up. Immediately, the large silver cylinder of an aircraft appeared in my window, coming over my right shoulder as I faced the Westside of the Pentagon directly towards the heliport. The aircraft, looking to be either a 757 or Airbus, seemed to come directly over the annex, as if it had been following Columbia Pike - an Arlington road leading to Pentagon. The aircraft was moving fast, at what I could only be estimate as between 250 to 300 knots. All in all, I probably only had the aircraft in my field of view for approximately 3 seconds. The aircraft was at a sharp downward angle of attack, on a direct course for the Pentagon. It was "clean", in as much as, there were no flaps applied and no apparent landing gear deployed. He was slightly left wing down as he appeared in my line of sight, as if he'd just "jinked" to avoid something. As he crossed Route 110 he appeared to level his wings, making a slight right wing slow adjustment as he impacted low on the Westside of the building to the right of the helo, tower and fire vehicle around corridor 5. ..Email posted to www.ournetfamily.com/WarOnTerror webmaster Copy of message / Sept 12 4:20 PM Sgt. William Lagasse , a pentagon police dog handler, the son of an aviation instructor, was filling up his patrol car at a gas station near the Pentagon when he noticed a jet fly in low. He watched as the plane plowed into the Pentagon. Initially, he thought the plane was about to drop on top of him -- it was that close. Lagasse knew something was wrong. The 757's flaps were not deployed and the landing gear was retracted . ... By Avis Thomas-Lester, Washington Post Staff Writer, / November 8th "I saw the aircraft above my head about 80 feet above the ground, 400 miles an hour. The reason, I have some experience as a pilot and I looked at the plane. Didn't see any landing gear. Didn't see any flaps down . I realized it wasn't going to land. . . . It was close enough that I could see the windows and the blinds had been pulled down. I read American Airlines on it. . . .I got on the radio and broadcast. I said a plane is, is heading toward the heliport side of the building." ABC Nightline - 9/11/02 Transcript (Lexis Nexis) (mirror) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/lagasse1.txt Ret. Army Col. Mitch Mitchell, CBS military consultant, was bringing his wife back from National Airport on Interstate 395 towards the Pentagon: "Just as we got even with the Pentagon, I looked out to the front and saw, coming straight down the road at us, a huge jet plane clearly with American Airlines written on it, and it looked like it was coming in to hit us. I told my wife, 'It's going to hit the Pentagon.' It crossed about 100 feet in front of us and at about 20 feet altitude and we watched it go in. It struck the Pentagon, and there was no indication whatever that it was doing anything other than performing a direct attack on that building. The landing gear was up. There were no flaps down and it looked like a deadly missile on the final phase of its mission into the building." "We saw what I estimate to be about the last seven seconds of the flight. It was a straight-in flight, angled slightly down , and there was--there was no intent to turn or to maneuver in any way. It was headed straight for its target and we were helpless to do anything about it but watch." CBS The Early Show, 9/13/01 - Transcript (Lexis Nexis) (text mirror) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/mitchell.txt Richard Benedetto , a USA TODAY reporter, was on his way to work, driving on the Highway parrallel to the Pentagon. " It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly. I didn't see any flaps .. looked like just in normal flying mode. The only thing we saw on the ground outside there was a piece of a ... the tail of a lamp post. Recorded interview - quick load / May 2002. Recorded interview - best quality / May 2002. "Then the plane flew right over my head . I said to myself, boy, that plane is going awfully fast. That plane is going to crash .... The noise was like an artillery shell , not an explosion like a bomb" The Hartford Courant, 9/12/01 (Lexis Nexis) (text mirror) http://www2.hawaii.edu/~julianr/lexisnexis/benedetto.txt Phillip Thompson, a senior fellow with the Lexington Institute, a public-policy foundation in Arlington, Va. [olemissgrad84@hotmail.com.] saw bombs and missiles explode overhead when he fought in the gulf war. "I was sitting in heavy traffic in the I-395 HOV lanes about 9:45 a.m., directly across from the Navy Annex... I heard the scream of a jet engine and, turning to look, saw my driver’s side window filled with the fuselage of the doomed airliner. It was flying only a couple of hundred feet off the ground — I could see the passenger windows glide by. The plane looked as if it were coming in for a landing — cruising at a shallow angle, wings level, very steady. But, strangely, the landing gear was up and the flaps weren’t down. http://www.militarycity.com/sept11/911_1068139.html Captain Lincoln Leibner , (a.k.a. "Liebner") was parking his car at the moment of attack: He rushed into the building to help. His hands were burned, and after he was taken away to a hospital for treatment, he returned later in the day to do more. "I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low,' said Army Captain Lincoln Liebner. "We got one guy out of the fire truck cab,' he said, adding he could hear people crying inside the wreckage. http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/mnt/html/webspecial/WTC/wtcnews15.html "The First Rescuer" / Carolyn Weaver / Washington / 13 Oct 2001 02:43 UTC View Carolyn Weaver's VOA TV report (RealVideo) "Plunging into the fire" / David M. Shribman / Globe Staff, 9/8/2002 "I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low," "My first thought was I've never seen one that high. Before it hit I realised what was happening, Captain Liebner says the aircraft struck a helicopter on the helipad, setting fire to a fire truck. We got one guy out of the cab," he said, adding he could hear people crying inside the wreckage. Captain Liebner, who had cuts on his hands from the debris, says he has been parking his car in the car park when the crash occurred."" http://abc.net.au/news/2001/09/item20010911230953_1.htm "Flames, bombs strike at symbolic heart of a nation" /Gay Alcorn / Sept. 12 2001 French version: http://www.cyberpresse.ca/reseau/monde/0109/mon_101090013337.html usmedicine.com / May 2002 quoted "Maj. Leibner." a communications officer for the secretary of defense. "I was about 100 yards away," he said. "You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit." "...The aircraft went in between the second and third floors. " ? " It was wheels up, flaps up, engines full throttle. " http://www.theosuobserver.com/main.cfm/include/smdetail/synid/54846.html Edited by JFK, Sep 29 2009, 02:38 AM.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 03:05 AM Post #13 |
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ok i see.... i had only gone by terry morin who said it took about 13 seconds to get there... he was about 3300 feet from the point of impact so thats 3300/13=appr. 254 ft/sec x 3600/5280= appr 173 mph which is close to what others said..... |
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 03:19 AM Post #14 |
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ok i guess i should go ask some1 at the 911 pilots forum..... thanks guys 
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 03:24 AM Post #15 |
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Terry Morin, a former USMC aviator, Program Manager for SPARTA, Inc was working as a contractor at the BMDO offices at the old Navy Annex. Having just reached the elevator in the 5th Wing of BMDO Federal Office Building (FOB) #2. He heard "an increasingly loud rumbling" "One to two seconds later the airliner came into my field of view. By that time the noise was absolutely deafening." The aircraft was essentially right over the top of me and the outer portion of the FOB ( flight path parallel the outer edge of the FOB ). Everything was shaking and vibrating, including the ground. I estimate that the aircraft was no more than 100 feet above me ( 30 to 50 feet above the FOB ) in a slight nose down attitude . The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage . I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines, but I couldn’t be sure. It looked like a 737 and I so reported to authorities. Within seconds the plane cleared the 8th Wing of BMDO and was heading directly towards the Pentagon. Engines were at a steady high-pitched whine , indicating to me that the throttles were steady and full. I estimated the aircraft speed at between 350 and 400 knots. The flight path appeared to be deliberate, smooth, and controlled . As the aircraft approached the Pentagon, I saw a minor flash (later found out that the aircraft had sheared off a portion of a highway light pole down on Hwy 110). As the aircraft flew ever lower I started to lose sight of the actual airframe as a row of trees to the Northeast of the FOB blocked my view. I could now only see the tail of the aircraft. I believe I saw the tail dip slightly to the right indicating a minor turn in that direction . The tail was barely visible when I saw the flash and subsequent fireball rise approximately 200 feet above the Pentagon. There was a large explosion noise and the low frequency sound echo that comes with this type of sound. Associated with that was the increase in air pressure, momentarily, like a small gust of wind. For those formerly in the military, it sounded like a 2000lb bomb going off roughly ½ mile in front of you. At once there was a huge cloud of black smoke that rose several hundred feet up. Elapsed time from hearing the initial noise to when I saw the impact flash was between 12 and 15 seconds. " ...the aircraft had been flown directly into the Pentagon without hitting the ground first or skipping into the building . " http://www.coping.org/911/survivor/pentagon.htm http://www.racematters.org/reportmarineofficerpentagon.htm 350 knots = 402.8 MPH 400 knots = 460.3 MPH http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/speed Edited by JFK, Sep 29 2009, 03:25 AM.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 03:44 AM Post #16 |
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"One to two seconds later the airliner came into my field of view. Elapsed time from hearing the initial noise to when I saw the impact flash was between 12 and 15 seconds." ok so 12 seconds minus 2 seconds equals 225 mph wasnt the narrator of the video emphasizing the slow speed of the plane? |
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 03:51 AM Post #17 |
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I am confident that Craig will chime in on this thread.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emMTVPhHBTE#t=2m39s Edited by JFK, Sep 29 2009, 03:59 AM.
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| Domenick DiMaggio | Sep 29 2009, 04:25 AM Post #18 |
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noc = irreconcilable with impact. the blast trajectory is only compatable with a soc flight path. the plausibility of a noc flight path and an soc impact blast trajectory are aerodynamically impossible especially at speeds required to insure full penetration of the structure. |
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| Craig Ranke CIT | Sep 29 2009, 09:19 AM Post #19 |
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Not only is that not plausible.....even AT the much slower speeds reported....but you are ignoring MOST of the north side witnesses including the ANC guys who had the best view of it AS it passed the citgo and report it over their parking lot perfectly corroborating Lagasse who places it over the ANC wall.  And of course don't forget heliport tower Sean Boger.  Nobody reported this ridiculous maneuver at all. This thread will only serve to confuse people and belongs in the (pseudo) skeptic section. |
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| Craig Ranke CIT | Sep 29 2009, 09:27 AM Post #20 |
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And don't forget.....in our interview Lagasse retracted his off the cuff "vortex" claim and admitted that nothing pushed him into his car but a "fear" or reaction. Plus a plane at low speeds like we are talking about would not appear like the low and level missile like object in the security video. Oh and um don't forget about Lloyde.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 10:34 AM Post #21 |
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hey there craig i'm only using witness reports, i don't completely trust government supplied data....;) i've been doing some calculations on this aircraft turn calculator... http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html is this a reliable indicator of airspeed/bank angle? what did lloyd say? i thought you didnt trust him? Edited by Pythagoras, Sep 29 2009, 10:54 AM.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 10:51 AM Post #22 |
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and are going by the 400 mph estimate of terry morin? |
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 11:29 AM Post #23 |
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ridiculous? all i did was invert 2 of the curves your witnesses drew.... didnt they say the plane was banking right and left as it went into the building? i think there were others who say the plane was banking left as it impacted too.... if my curve is aerodynamically 'ridiculous' then so are the paths drawn by some of your witnesses.... |
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| JFK | Sep 29 2009, 11:38 AM Post #24 |
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Now you are trolling. Plug the numbers of your path into that calculator. Edited by JFK, Sep 29 2009, 11:39 AM.
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| Pythagoras | Sep 29 2009, 11:56 AM Post #25 |
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i thought this would be the first possibility anyone would think to eliminate.... trolling? did i call any of your theories ridiculous? speaking of which, according to that calculator, a curve from terry morin to the ANC parking lot, to the point of impact would require a max speed of 320 mph at a 60 degree bank throughout....did anyone report that?   |
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