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While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there Tuesday, officials said. [LATimes]

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The “smell of Cordite” is the smell of nitrogen oxides which form in high temperature flames.

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There would have been the remains of an exploded tank that had been filled with fuel. No such evidence was found.

There would have been sharp explosion and not a boom if all the columns would have had charges on them. One charge to do it all would have been enormous. The damage is not consistent with HE demolitions nor was the fire. A projectile and fuel oil had to do the work.

scott75

Sep 9 2009, 03:38 AM

I had thought that the pentagon renovations made it so that the workers weren't there. And yet I recently read in a military article that 80% were in fact there. I wish I'd saved the link to that one, can't find it now. Anyway, I don't understand how this can accord with a Los Angeles Times article, that can apparently no longer be accessed at its original link, but that has been saved on a truth movement site, that said something rather different:

Quote:

 

While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there Tuesday, officials said. [LATimes]

Attached to this post:

Pentagon_vulnerable.png (359.88 KB)

Quote:

 

There would have been the remains of an exploded tank that had been filled with fuel. No such evidence was found.

JFK

Sep 9 2009, 09:52 AM

scott75

Sep 9 2009, 03:38 AM

I had thought that the pentagon renovations made it so that the workers weren't there. And yet I recently read in a military article that 80% were in fact there. I wish I'd saved the link to that one, can't find it now. Anyway, I don't understand how this can accord with a Los Angeles Times article, that can apparently no longer be accessed at its original link, but that has been saved on a truth movement site, that said something rather different:

Quote:

 

While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there Tuesday, officials said. [LATimes]

This article Scott ?
[image of article]

Avenger

Sep 10 2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

 

There would have been the remains of an exploded tank that had been filled with fuel. No such evidence was found.

[images of diesel-powered generator]

Diesel-powered generator.

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:41 PM

Now if I could only find that military article..

Attached to this post:

Leatherneck.png (1.29 MB)

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:46 PM

Thanks JFK. One question- there was only one tank at the pentagon, right?

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 07:07 PM

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:41 PM

Now if I could only find that military article..

Good thing I am a packrat, eh ?

[image of an article]

Quote:

 

Q: Was wedge two empty?

Evey: Wedge two was not totally empty. Let me put it in perspective for you. Eighty-five percent of the people wedge two move into wedge one. So, while we were vacating wedge two, they are moving in to and populating wedge one.

Q: Uh-huh.

Evey: Okay. So, 15 percent of the people moved out of wedge two into some other location, okay. So, you didn't have a full complement of people in wedge one. It was not fully populated. But it was -- it was getting close, okay. It was to be fully populated by the end of October. My guess it was probably about -- probably about 80 percent, okay. So --

Q: So, about 4,000 people?

Evey: Actually, wedge one is a little light on people because it has some facilities we're moving in there that have a lot of acreage but not many people -- like the library, which is very large, okay. It was actually going to have around 4,500 people in it, a little short. So, my guess is probably nearer to 3,500 people.

Q: So was wedge two mostly vacated, or to what degree was it vacated?

Evey: Wedge two was probably about -- my guess is about 60 or 70 percent vacated.

Q: So, you estimate that 3,500 people were in wedge one when this happened, or could have been?

Evey: Could have been. Could have been.

Q: So, as a percentage, the casualties seem to be reasonably light, although, of course, each one is significant.

Evey: I think that the fact that they happened to hit an area that we had built so sturdily was a wonderful gift.

Q: In a perverse way.

Evey: In a perverse way.

Staff: Are we done?

Q: Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you.

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 07:17 PM

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:46 PM

Thanks JFK. One question- there was only one tank at the pentagon, right?

To the best of my knowledge there was one genset trailer. The exact capacity of it's fuel tank(s) I do not know.

When I worked with similar gensets ( ~1983 ) ours had one standard 275 gallon tanks per genset, except for the dual cats, those were spec'd with a 1500 gallon underbelly tank ( one trailer, 2 gensets ).

My company had a total of 7 genset trailers on the road and when hooked in parallel could power any one of the 5 boroughs of NYC.

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 08:38 PM

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 07:17 PM

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:46 PM

Thanks JFK. One question- there was only one tank at the pentagon, right?

To the best of my knowledge there was one genset trailer. The exact capacity of it's fuel tank(s) I do not know.

When I worked with similar gensets ( ~1983 ) ours had one standard 275 gallon tanks per genset, except for the dual cats, those were spec'd with a 1500 gallon underbelly tank ( one trailer, 2 gensets ).

My company had a total of 7 genset trailers on the road and when hooked in parallel could power any one of the 5 boroughs of NYC.

Thanks, good to know :-). So you seem to be saying that it's most likely that there was only one genset trailer, and that its capacity was 1000-1500 gallons.

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 08:39 PM

Part 1
http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=309572&t=2134814

Part 2
http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=309573&t=2134814

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 08:57 PM

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 08:38 PM

JFK

Sep 11 2009, 07:17 PM

scott75

Sep 11 2009, 06:46 PM

Thanks JFK. One question- there was only one tank at the pentagon, right?

To the best of my knowledge there was one genset trailer. The exact capacity of it's fuel tank(s) I do not know.

When I worked with similar gensets ( ~1983 ) ours had one standard 275 gallon tanks per genset, except for the dual cats, those were spec'd with a 1500 gallon underbelly tank ( one trailer, 2 gensets ).

My company had a total of 7 genset trailers on the road and when hooked in parallel could power any one of the 5 boroughs of NYC.

Thanks, good to know :-). So you seem to be saying that it's most likely that there was only one genset trailer, and that its capacity was 1000-1500 gallons.

No. I do not know what it's capacity was. It could have been anywhere from 275 gallons ( the smallest I have seen for that basic class ) to about 4000 gallons ( maxing the GVW's of the trailer ).

Edit to add - that 4000 gallons is a guess based on fuel transports which use basically the same running gear which average a capacity of 9000 gallons... minus the weight of the genset and supporting copper.

diogenesdisappointed

 

Renovations within the Pentagon were done in stages.

diogenesdisappointed

 

The people working in one of the sides would be moved to other areas in the building while that side was renovated.

diogenesdisappointed

 

There were people working in the side of the building.

diogenesdisappointed

 

THAT WAS STRUCK BY AN AIRPLANE.

diogenesdisappointed

 

The idea that bombs were used is preposterous.

diogenesdisappointed

Sep 13 2009, 08:45 PM

Renovations within the Pentagon were done in stages. The people working in one of the sides would be moved to other areas in the building while that side was renovated. There were people working in the side of the building THAT WAS STRUCK BY AN AIRPLANE. The idea that bombs were used is preposterous.

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LT. GEN. BOB FLOWERS COMMANDS THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS. THE CORPS HELPED DESIGN THE PENTAGON'S NEW PROTECTION. THE ENGINEERS STUDIED PAST ATTACKS, INCLUDING THE 1983 MARINE BARRACKS BOMBING IN LEBANON, OKLAHOMA CITY IN 1995, THE KHOBAR TOWERS BARRACKS IN SAUDI ARABIA AND THE U.S. EMBASSIES IN EAST AFRICA.

"AT KHOBAR TOWERS, FOR EXAMPLE, MOST OF THE DAMAGE AND CASUALTIES WERE CAUSED BY FLYING DEBRIS FROM THE STRUCTURE AND THE GLASS, ET CETERA," SAYS FLOWERS. "AND SO BASED ON THAT, WE WORKED, DESIGNED, THINGS TO PREVENT FLYING DEBRIS AND FLYING GLASS. At Oklahoma City, the bulk of the casualties were caused by the collapsing structure. So one of the things we studied was how to put redundant capability in a structure to prevent it from collapsing if it was attacked. So by applying the lessons that you learn from doing those studies, you can better protect structures in the future."

It was a tough way to learn a lesson. But there is an easier way. THE CORPS IS MAKING A STUDY OF SAFER BUILDINGS BY SETTING OFF ITS OWN BOMBS AT A RESEARCH CENTER IN MISSISSIPPI.

REED MOSHER IS THE TECHNICAL DIRECTOR FOR SURVIVABILITY. THEY HAVE DEVELOPED A TEAM OF SPECIALISTS THAT GOES TO THESE TERRORIST STRIKES AS SOON AS THEY HAPPEN.

THE BUILDINGS TELL THE TEAM A GREAT DEAL. "WE WANT TO FIND WHAT PERFORMED WELL, WHAT DIDN'T PERFORM WELL, TRY TO CHARACTERIZE THE SIZE OF THE BOMB, THE BLAST," SAYS MOSHER.

MOSHER ALSO DESIGNS HIS OWN TERRORIST BOMBINGS IN MINIATURE WITH EXACTING SCALE MODELS OF REINFORCED CONCRETE BUILDINGS.

RECENTLY, MOSHER'S TEAM TESTED A COMMON INTERIOR WALL, PARTICLE BOARD, STEEL WALL STUDS AND SHEETROCK. THE WALL IS SET IN A STEEL FRAME WITH INSTRUMENTS INSIDE.

THEN THEY SET OFF A BOMB. MOSHER HAS DONE HUNDREDS OF THESE, IN AN EFFORT TO CREATE NEW BUILDING MATERIALS. THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS RUNS THESE EXPERIMENTS THROUGH ITS SUPER COMPUTER CENTER, WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL IN THE NATION. THE COMPUTER CAN TEST VARIOUS KINDS OF BOMBS AGAINST DIFFERENT BUILDINGS WITHOUT BREAKING ANY GLASS.

IN A SPECIAL 3-D IMAGING ROOM MOSHER SHOWED HOW THE SUPER COMPUTERS RECREATES THE BLAST WAVE THAT HIT KHOBAR TOWERS. IT PREDICTS THE PATH OF EVERY SHARD OF GLASS FROM A SINGLE BREAKING WINDOW.

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ERDC has long been a research leader in weapons effects, protective structures, and survivability. Over the years, this research led to protective building designs, retrofits to improve protection in existing buildings, and tools to help do vulnerability assessments. These protective technologies have been used in many government buildings in the last several years and continue to be used today.
These protective designs and structural components went through a variety of explosives tests and computer modeling over the years, but the biggest test occurred on Sep. 11, 2001. When the hijacked plane crashed into the Pentagon, it obliterated the first and second floors. But the plane impacted the first wedge of the Pentagon that had just been renovated using a variety of ERDC-developed protective technologies on the walls and windows. Unprotected offices 90 meters from impact were wrecked, while renovated Pentagon offices only 17 meters from the plane’s impact were relatively intact. These protective technologies were credited with saving numerous lives at the Pentagon.
........
Another major ERDC resource for military planners is the Joint Antiterrorism Planning Guide (JAT Guide). The Web portal-enabled JAT Guide provides the requirements, processes, tools, and templates to produce a comprehensive and effective antiterrorism plan for an entire military installation of any size. The system also has potential for use by cities, states, and other government agencies. It has been field tested at Army, Marine Corps, Navy, and Air Force installations.
THE JAT GUIDE CONTAINS INVALUABLE PLANNING TOOLS THAT ALLOW PLANNERS TO EVALUATE TERRORIST THREAT SCENARIOS, TACTICS, WEAPONS SYSTEMS, SECURITY UPGRADES, BUILDING RETROFITS, EXPLOSIVE STANDOFF DISTANCES, AND POTENTIAL BOMB DAMAGE, AND EVEN POSSIBLE THREATS FOR INCOMING OR DEPARTING AIRCRAFT. IT IS ONE OF THE MANY ERDC TOOLS DEVELOPED FOR THE MILITARY THAT SHOULD ALSO SEE WIDESPREAD USE IN FUTURE HOMELAND SECURITY APPLICATIONS.

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The Mark 77 bomb (MK-77) is a US 750-lb (340 kg) air-dropped incendiary bomb carrying 110 US gallons (415 litres) of a fuel gel mix which is the direct successor to napalm.

The MK-77 is the primary incendiary weapon currently in use by the United States military. Instead of the gasoline and the benzene fuel used in napalm, MK-77 use kerosene-based fuel, which has a lower concentration of benzene. The Pentagon has claimed that the MK-77 has less impact on the environment than napalm. THE MIXTURE REPORTEDLY ALSO CONTAINS AN OXIDIZING AGENT, MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT TO PUT OUT ONCE IGNITED .
THE FIRE WOULD BURN AT EXTREME TEMPERATURES THAT COULD DESTROY MOST BUILDINGS MADE OF WOOD OR OTHER COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS (BUILDINGS CONSTRUCTED OF STONE TEND TO RESIST INCENDIARY DESTRUCTION UNLESS THEY ARE FIRST BLOWN OPEN BY HIGH EXPLOSIVES).

In August 2003, the San Diego Union Tribune alleged that U.S. Marine pilots and their commanders confirmed the use of Mark 77 firebombs on Iraqi Republican Guards during the initial stages of combat. The only Mk 77 bomb remaining in service at this time was the Mk 77 Mod 5, which does not use actual napalm (e.g. napalm-b), but a different incendiary mixture. The last U.S. bomb to use actual napalm was the Mark 77 Mod 4, the last of which were destroyed in March 2001.

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Thermobaric weapons distinguish themselves from conventional explosive weapons by using atmospheric oxygen, instead of carrying an oxidizer in their explosives. They are also called high-impulse thermobaric weapons (HITs), fuel-air explosives (FAE or FAX) or sometimes fuel-air munitions, heat and pressure weapons, or vacuum bombs. They produce more explosive energy for a given size than do other conventional explosives..


A thermobaric weapon (or solid fuel-air explosive) uses the gaseous products (H2, H2O, CO and CO2) of an initial explosion for an afterburning of reactive solids. Because their reaction with atmospheric oxygen only produces solid oxides the blast wave is primarily generated by heat of combustion ("thermobaric") instead of expanding explosion gases.

Thermobaric explosives are highly effective in confined spaces such as tunnels, caves or underground bunkers. RATHER THAN PROVIDING PROTECTION AS THEY WOULD FROM CONVENTIONAL EXPLOSIVE AMMUNITION, STRUCTURAL INTERIOR WALLS, PARTICULARLY CEMENT OR OTHER HARD SURFACES, MAGNIFY AND CHANNEL THE SHOCKWAVES CREATED BY A THERMOBARIC DETONATION. THE STRONGER THE WALLS, THE HIGHER THE PRESSURE’S REFLECTIVE EFFECT.

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In the form that they exist today, these devices (then dubbed Fuel-Air Munitions) have been said to have been developed in the 1960s and used by the United States during the Vietnam War to destroy Viet Cong tunnels, clear forest for helicopter landing sites and to clear mine fields. However, it is not clear that this is entirely the case; in particular, the very large parachute-delivered " Daisy Cutter" bomb used for this purpose was suspected to have been such a weapon but the current published details indicate that it was not (IT SEEMS TO BE FILLED WITH A MIXTURE OF AMMONIUM NITRATE AND JET FUEL INSTEAD)

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Russia used thermobaric bombs against Chechen rebels during its war in that breakaway republic in the mid-1990s. In an attempt to dislodge al-Qaeda and Taliban forces from caves in Afghanistan the US also rushed into production thermobaric weapons. At least 10 were believed to have been used in that war.

OTHER TERRORIST EXPLOSIONS, SUCH AS TIMOTHY MCVEIGH'S 1995 TRUCK BOMB THAT KILLED 168 PEOPLE IN OKLAHOMA CITY AND THE BALI BLAST, ARE SIMILAR TO THERMOBARIC WEAPONS. The Bali explosion killed more than 200, including two Canadians. "Some of the terrorist explosions out there look a lot like thermobaric mixtures," Murray added.

Thermobarics inject a fine, flammable mist into the air, Brigety said. Once ignited, the mist creates a mammoth fireball and pressure wave that's nearly impossible to avoid. The mist can travel around corners and into hidden crannies. And it burns relatively slowly, so jumping out of the way on the bomb's initial impact isn't much of a survival tactic.