AA 77 Radar Data

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AA 77 Radar Data
Topic Started: Sep 6 2009, 06:58 AM (596 Views)
JFK	Sep 17 2009, 11:30 AM Post #26
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Scott75 I'm assuming you mean the purple points; no 21 and 22 markings on them, but I counted, they seem to be the 21st and 22nd, points. They speak of lattitude and longitude. I suppose if I knew the lattitude and the longitude of the official flight path, I might see what you're getting at, but I don't. The lat/longs in the chart in the lower left of that image come directly from the 84 RADES data Scott. The first post of the first link I directed you to in this thread tells you how you may also aquire that data since it has been released via FOIA Scott. Of course Scott had you actually read that post you would already know this Scott. Edited by JFK, Sep 17 2009, 11:30 AM.
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scott75	Sep 17 2009, 09:20 PM Post #27
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Scott75 I'm assuming you mean the purple points; no 21 and 22 markings on them, but I counted, they seem to be the 21st and 22nd, points. They speak of lattitude and longitude. I suppose if I knew the lattitude and the longitude of the official flight path, I might see what you're getting at, but I don't. The lat/longs in the chart in the lower left of that image come directly from the 84 RADES data Scott. I believe you are simply repeating what you said and I quoted at the beginning of this thread... JFK The first post of the first link I directed you to in this thread tells you how you may also acquire that data since it has been released via FOIA Scott. Of course Scott had you actually read that post you would already know this Scott. I'm assuming you mean this post: http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=78967&t=304879 I'd read it before. There are a lot of things I don't get in that post. Why don't I just take your word for it that the coordinates are from RADES 84; I never said I wanted proof for that. I simply wanted to know how you had determined the RADES 84 flight path was in relation to the Citgo gas station from the map you'd shown me alone (thus being able to determine that "The turn between points 8 and 15 is impossible at those speeds in a 757 according to any bank angle calculator I have found to date."; I'm guessing points 8 and 15 are simply counted from the top as points 21 and 22 apparently were?). Or perhaps it was not that map alone that had made this clear to you; perhaps you knew the coordinates of the Citgo gas station? Edited by scott75, Sep 17 2009, 10:25 PM.
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JFK	Sep 17 2009, 10:13 PM Post #28
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Your link points to a non-existant post. The center of the Citgo is at 38.869591 latitude -77.063845 longititude.
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scott75	Sep 17 2009, 10:39 PM Post #29
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Sep 17 2009, 10:13 PM Your link points to a non-existant post. The center of the Citgo is at 38.869591 latitude -77.063845 longititude. I fixed the link. Thanks for the lat/lon of the citgo. Was looking at that map some more and it's finally beginning to make sense; I'm guessing the green dot is where the Citgo was and I'm also guessing point 20 is where the data stopped, 21 being a position north of the citgo and 22, south. I also now notice that the points -are- numbered, on the map, if not on the chart; so you're saying that the turn from point 8 to 15 was too sharp for a 757 to make? Edited by scott75, Sep 17 2009, 10:39 PM.
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JFK	Sep 17 2009, 11:00 PM Post #30
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Incorrect. The Turn Information Calculator is saying that. http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html
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scott75	Sep 17 2009, 11:12 PM Post #31
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Sep 17 2009, 11:00 PM Quote: scott75 so you're saying that the turn from point 8 to 15 was too sharp for a 757 to make? Incorrect. The Turn Information Calculator is saying that. http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html Alright. Was I right on the rest?
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JFK	Sep 17 2009, 11:41 PM Post #32
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Points 21 and 22 are also in the RADES data, although those points make no sense.
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scott75	Sep 18 2009, 09:47 AM Post #33
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Sep 17 2009, 11:41 PM Points 21 and 22 are also in the RADES data, although those points make no sense. Why do they make no sense? Because the plane simply couldn't have gone that fast to get from 20 to 21 and turn that fast to get from 21 to 22? Edited by scott75, Sep 18 2009, 09:47 AM.
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JFK	Sep 18 2009, 10:10 AM Post #34
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	scott75 Sep 18 2009, 09:47 AM JFK Sep 17 2009, 11:41 PM Points 21 and 22 are also in the RADES data, although those points make no sense. Why do they make no sense? Because the plane simply couldn't have gone that fast to get from 20 to 21 and turn that fast to get from 21 to 22? Of you study the times, there is a missed return between 20 and 21, so speed is really not an issue there... However the 90+ degree turn and the slow speed berween 21 and 22 is an issue.... As is the clock which stopped at the time of the attack at the Pentagon. Edit to add - and this is the first image of smoke from the Pentagon courtesy of http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109110912-0954 Edit again to add - I just did a very crude smoke travel estimate based upon that video and got 15 pixels per minute which hints at the broken clock being correct ( ~ 21 minutes ). Attached to this post: clk.jpeg (64.17 KB) 942Pentagon.png (395.82 KB) Edited by JFK, Sep 18 2009, 11:03 AM.
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scott75	Sep 18 2009, 11:03 AM Post #35
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK scott75 Sep 18 2009, 09:47 AM JFK Sep 17 2009, 11:41 PM Points 21 and 22 are also in the RADES data, although those points make no sense. Why do they make no sense? Because the plane simply couldn't have gone that fast to get from 20 to 21 and turn that fast to get from 21 to 22? If you study the times, there is a missed return between 20 and 21, so speed is really not an issue there... Interesting. JFK However the 90+ degree turn and the slow speed berween 21 and 22 is an issue.... Would it have been impossible? It also almost seems as if the RADES 84 data (is it the data that the NTSB provided?) is trying to account for the north side witnesses while still managing to get on the south side to hit the light poles. Ofcourse, no matter what, I believe it couldn't have and come in low and level to hit the pentagon due to PFT's video on the subject, would have been impossible due to the G forces to pull up from the dive. JFK As is the clock which stopped at the time of the attack at the Pentagon. And yet the official time of the plane allegedly hitting the pentagon is 9:37am... JFK Edit to add - and this is the first image of smoke from the Pentagon courtesy of http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109110912-0954 What is the significance of that photo? Edited by scott75, Sep 18 2009, 11:12 AM.
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JFK	Sep 18 2009, 11:04 AM Post #36
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Read my final edit in my previous post.
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scott75	Sep 18 2009, 11:15 AM Post #37
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Sep 18 2009, 11:04 AM Read my final edit in my previous post. Wait a second, 21 minutes from 9:42am? That would mean it hit at 9:21am, which is not what the stopped clocks say... the official time it hit was 9:37am, right? Edited by scott75, Sep 18 2009, 11:16 AM.
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JFK	Sep 18 2009, 11:20 AM Post #38
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	scott75 Sep 18 2009, 11:15 AM JFK Sep 18 2009, 11:04 AM Read my final edit in my previous post. Wait a second, 21 minutes from 9:42am? That would mean it hit at 9:21am, which is not what the stopped clocks say... Well Scott, I have pointed you to the video. I suggest you watch it, do some screen grabs and count pixels for yourself ( hint : use one of the buildings in the foreground as a reference point ). In other words do something useful for a dramatic change. BTW, the 911 commission report puts the impact at http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm Edit to add - footnote 61 references this document : http://www.ntsb.gov/info/Flight_%20Path_%20Study_AA77.pdf Attached to this post: 93746Commission.png (15.3 KB) Edited by JFK, Sep 18 2009, 11:31 AM.
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scott75	Sep 18 2009, 12:13 PM Post #39
Posts: 152 Group: Members Member #827 Joined: 09/05/08	JFK Sep 18 2009, 11:20 AM scott75 Sep 18 2009, 11:15 AM JFK Sep 18 2009, 11:04 AM Read my final edit in my previous post. Wait a second, 21 minutes from 9:42am? That would mean it hit at 9:21am, which is not what the stopped clocks say... Well Scott, I have pointed you to the video. I suggest you watch it, do some screen grabs and count pixels for yourself ( hint : use one of the buildings in the foreground as a reference point ). In other words do something useful for a dramatic change. BTW, the 911 commission report puts the impact at http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm Edit to add - footnote 61 references this document : http://www.ntsb.gov/info/Flight_%20Path_%20Study_AA77.pdf I disagree with your assertion that I never do anything useful. Anyway, haven't you already done what you suggest I do? If I was challenging your counting of pixels, that'd be one thing; but I just don't understand why the clocks would have stopped at 9:31am if the bomb went off at 9:21am.. unless the clocks were stopped by a secondary explosion, which also may have made the facade crumble further then it had initially.
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Duffman1013	Sep 18 2009, 01:56 PM Post #40
Posts: 50 Group: Members Member #1,269 Joined: 08/06/09	Ok, I know I just came in on this convo, but is there something I'm missing? I haven't read anywhere about a conflict in the time of "impact/explosion", or that there was a time difference between official and alternate theories. And, I would assume (this may be way off), but the reason the clock stopped without shock possibly altering the position of the hands would be something akin to an EMP as a result of an explosion. Am I right, or just grabbing at straws? And if there is a link to a time discrepancy post, please let me know! ty
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JFK	Sep 18 2009, 02:13 PM Post #41
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Duffman1013 Sep 18 2009, 01:56 PM Ok, I know I just came in on this convo, but is there something I'm missing? I haven't read anywhere about a conflict in the time of "impact/explosion", or that there was a time difference between official and alternate theories. And, I would assume (this may be way off), but the reason the clock stopped without shock possibly altering the position of the hands would be something akin to an EMP as a result of an explosion. Am I right, or just grabbing at straws? And if there is a link to a time discrepancy post, please let me know! ty That depends upon whose "official story" you choose to believe... The FAA or the Commission report and the NTSB. Here is the FAA's timeline compiled September 17th, 2001 : http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB165/faa5.pdf They agree with the broken clock. Edit to add - more about the clock here - http://www.news.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=2480 - including a high rez image. Another edit to add - the doubletree video puts it at 9:34:11 Attached to this post: 093411DT_Pentagon.png (204.13 KB) Edited by JFK, Sep 18 2009, 02:32 PM.
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Duffman1013	Sep 18 2009, 09:54 PM Post #42
Posts: 50 Group: Members Member #1,269 Joined: 08/06/09	Dude, that's awesome and everything (I never heard about the time discrepancy, just goes to show how much I have to learn about that morning!), but the other side of that clock story to me is what caused the clock to stop like that. Not to minimize the events, but I love those little puzzles like that. Any speculation as to why the clock died? That's no cheap Wal-Mart clock either... Edited by Duffman1013, Sep 18 2009, 09:55 PM.
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JFK	Sep 18 2009, 10:43 PM Post #43
Posts: 4,160 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	Duffman1013 Sep 18 2009, 09:54 PM Dude, that's awesome and everything (I never heard about the time discrepancy, just goes to show how much I have to learn about that morning!), but the other side of that clock story to me is what caused the clock to stop like that. Not to minimize the events, but I love those little puzzles like that. Any speculation as to why the clock died? That's no cheap Wal-Mart clock either... The assumption is that when they fell off their walls the batteries fell out. < shrugs > Edit to add - two clocks, one in the Pentagon and one in the heliport tower... Edited by JFK, Sep 18 2009, 10:46 PM.
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22205	Sep 18 2009, 11:31 PM Post #44
Arlingtonian Posts: 443 Group: Members Member #24 Joined: 01/14/08	random/trivial detail - skilcraft clocks for sale: http://www.jwodcatalog.com/products.aspx?sid=15 SKILCRAFT SelfSet clock is programmed to automatically set itself to Daylight Savings without the use of a signal. Clock includes a white dial with black Arabic numerals, black hour and minute hands, red second hand and shatter-resistant UV-protected clear crystal. "Old schedule", "new schedule" and "Off" switch allows users to revert to former schedules compliant with 2007 Daylight Savings regulations. Includes hanging hardware and 3 year limited warranty. Ideal for use in facilities where a radio signal may not reach radio-controlled clocks. Battery operated movement uses one AA battery (not included). ps - scroll down for product details of the 2 clocks (pentagon/heliport)



22205	Sep 18 2009, 11:51 PM Post #45
Arlingtonian Posts: 443 Group: Members Member #24 Joined: 01/14/08	also worthy of note about time/clocks, is that at least 2 people recognized the time of the explosion(s) as being near or around 9:15ish. either they both had their personal watches set incorrectly, or the (at least) some of the clocks in the building were off. roosevelt roberts is one of them, and this guy is the other: Interview with Nicholas Maiorca, Haymarket, Virginia, November 29, 2001 http://memory.loc.gov/service/afc/afc2001015/sr/sr344a01.mp3



noeffects	Sep 19 2009, 09:13 AM Post #46
Posts: 798 Group: Members Member #178 Joined: 01/22/08	SKILCRAFT Clock includes a white dial with black Arabic numerals, ...Arabic you say ? more proof of al-qaeda...
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