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The RJ Lee Report; Composition and Morphology (repost)
Topic Started: Mar 31 2008, 10:07 AM (830 Views)
Avenger
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I was watching Dr Steven Jones on YouTube talking about this WTC dust report he called the RJ Lee Report. Apparently, it was done by RJ LeeGroup Inc. for Deutsche Bank. Insurance purposes. Anyhow, Steven Jones was saying they found evidence of melted iron and even vaporized lead. So I decided to see if I could dig this report up. Found it and sure enough, it does mention metals, including iron, being melted.
Quote:
 
Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC
Event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high
heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension.
Click on the right pdf arrow till you get to page 21.
RJ Lee Report


And it does also mention vaporized lead.
Quote:
 
The amount of energy introduced during the generation of the WTC Dust
and the ensuing conflagration caused various components to vaporize.
Vapor phase components with high boiling point and high melting point
would have, as they cooled, tended to form precipitated particles or thin film
deposits on available surfaces through condensation mechanisms. The
results of this process would be the presence of a thin layer of deposited
material on the surfaces of the dust particulate matter. Many of the
materials, such as lead, cadmium, mercury and various organic compounds,
vaporized and then condensed during the WTC Event.
Pdf page 25.
RJ Lee Report

Something else that Jones mentions is that lead vaporizes at over 1700 Celsius. Did a Google search. According to the sources I found, the boiling point of lead is between 1740 and 1749 Celsius.

So. We have multiple sources mentioning molten steel or iron, and we have the RJ Lee Report mentioning vaporized lead. So what's to account for this vaporized lead? Office fires? Or something else?
Edited by Avenger, Mar 31 2008, 10:13 AM.
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Headspin
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the temperatures required to vaporise lead would have melted steel.
the debunkers are often fond of using the mantra "the fires did not have to melt the steel, the fires only needed to weaken the steel", so by that logic the towers would have collapsed before the temperature got high enough to vapourise lead.

the presence of vapourised lead (and therefore molten steel/iron) proves the fires did not cause the collapse.
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Avenger
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bump.
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tharg

Quote:
 
Something else that Jones mentions is that lead vaporizes at over 1700 Celsius.


Mr Jones is very good at telling half truths isnt he?

Lead gives off fumes when molten, progressively more so as it increases temperature from its melting point, at around 1000deg C it gives off harmful amounts of fumes and it is necessary to ventilate any area where it is being cast.
Health and safety regulations advise against raising the temperature above 500degC without adequate protection from fumes.

http://tinyurl.com/3mhtna
http://tinyurl.com/5zycgk
http://tinyurl.com/3s4ww5

Imagine the amount of molten lead at around 1000deg C in the wtcs.
All those UPS batteries on the 81st floor of wtc2 would cause a lot of fumes.
Edited by tharg, May 14 2008, 12:53 PM.
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Avenger
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Good point about the evaporated lead.

So what about the molten iron?
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Headspin
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Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension. Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the melting of iron (or steel).

Click here: Page 17 RJ Lee report
Edited by Headspin, May 15 2008, 07:47 AM.
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tharg

Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
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JFK
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tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Posted Image
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tharg

JFK
May 15 2008, 08:41 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Posted Image
And your point is?
Edited by tharg, May 15 2008, 08:58 AM.
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JFK
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What is missing and why ?
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tharg

JFK
May 15 2008, 09:19 AM
What is missing and why ?
I will let you explain for yourself the meaning of your post and how it relates to the topic under discussion, in your own good time.
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Headspin
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tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
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tharg

Headspin
May 15 2008, 09:36 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.

Heres a little debate between Frank Greening and Steven Jones for you.

http://tinyurl.com/477rcf

Edited by tharg, May 15 2008, 09:50 AM.
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Headspin
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tharg
May 15 2008, 09:45 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 09:36 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.

Heres a little debate between Frank Greening and Steven Jones for you.

http://tinyurl.com/477rcf

greening there says 1400C, not 1000C for incinerators, and he cites no source.
I am not sure what you want me to take from those letters, if you think there is something in there that moves this thread forward in terms of molten iron, please point it out.
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tharg

Headspin
May 15 2008, 10:16 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 09:45 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 09:36 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.

Heres a little debate between Frank Greening and Steven Jones for you.

http://tinyurl.com/477rcf

greening there says 1400C, not 1000C for incinerators, and he cites no source.
I am not sure what you want me to take from those letters, if you think there is something in there that moves this thread forward in terms of molten iron, please point it out.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.
Google for it.
Yes, I have no idea at all why the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators burning at 1000deg C could possibly have any relevance to this subject.
B-)
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Headspin
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tharg
May 15 2008, 10:30 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 10:16 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 09:45 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 09:36 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.

Heres a little debate between Frank Greening and Steven Jones for you.

http://tinyurl.com/477rcf

greening there says 1400C, not 1000C for incinerators, and he cites no source.
I am not sure what you want me to take from those letters, if you think there is something in there that moves this thread forward in terms of molten iron, please point it out.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.
Google for it.
Yes, I have no idea at all why the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators burning at 1000deg C could possibly have any relevance to this subject.
B-)
the lack of burning coal in any (let alone significant) quantities at the wtc would seem to rule out the possibility of the spheres being fly ash.
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tharg

Headspin
May 15 2008, 01:10 PM
tharg
May 15 2008, 10:30 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 10:16 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 09:45 AM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 09:36 AM
tharg
May 15 2008, 08:33 AM
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash, running at around 1000deg C.
Why do you think that is?
Could it be due to reactions happening with other chemicals being released, lowering the melting point, just like with the corrosive sulphide attacks we were discussing?
Otherwise how could they form in flyash?
a lot of questions and a lot of speculation there. can you cite anything at all?
or can we all go home now?

btw, fly ash comes from burning coal, much higher than 1000C i would think.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.

Heres a little debate between Frank Greening and Steven Jones for you.

http://tinyurl.com/477rcf

greening there says 1400C, not 1000C for incinerators, and he cites no source.
I am not sure what you want me to take from those letters, if you think there is something in there that moves this thread forward in terms of molten iron, please point it out.
MSW incinerators operate at about 1000deg C.
Google for it.
Yes, I have no idea at all why the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators burning at 1000deg C could possibly have any relevance to this subject.
B-)
the lack of burning coal in any (let alone significant) quantities at the wtc would seem to rule out the possibility of the spheres being fly ash.
The spheres result from the burning of municipal solid waste at around 1000 deg C, Im not sure you have understood the relevance of that yet.
Keep thinking.
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Headspin
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tharg
 
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash...
tharg
 
the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators....
tharg
 
The spheres result from the burning.....
particles and spheres are not necessarily the same as previously molten spheres, your avoidance of the word molten is telling. If it is your contention that the iron spheres found in the WTC dust were not molten, then you need to explain why, since it is widely accepted by independent experts that the iron spheres in the WTC dust did melt.

The central issue is that of molten iron, because the presence of molten iron/molten steel contradicts the official story - the implication of molten iron/steel is that there is a source of energy involved in the destruction of the towers and WTC7, not accounted for in the official explanations.
Edited by Headspin, May 15 2008, 07:06 PM.
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tharg

Headspin
May 15 2008, 06:00 PM
tharg
 
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash...
tharg
 
the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators....
tharg
 
The spheres result from the burning.....
particles and spheres are not necessarily the same as previously molten spheres, your avoidance of the word molten is telling. If it is your contention that the iron spheres found in the WTC dust were not molten, then you need to explain why, since it is widely accepted by independent experts that the iron spheres in the WTC dust did melt.

The central issue is that of molten iron, because the presence of molten iron/molten steel contradicts the official story - the implication of molten iron/steel is that there is a source of energy involved in the destruction of the towers and WTC7, not accounted for in the official explanations.
The spheres were clearly molten, that is not the issue Im debating, Headpin.
How they actually were produced and by what particular chemical reaction, hasnt been explained.
I have shown examples how of these particles are produced from a fire far lower in temperature than that necessary to melt steel, fuelled by products available in any office or house fire.
The conclusion from that, isnt too difficult to work out.
Of course, just because you have zero evidence of a thermitic reaction, doesnt mean you should let reality get in the way of your ,sorry I mean Steven Joneses, theories. :D
Edited by tharg, May 16 2008, 03:47 PM.
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Headspin
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tharg
May 16 2008, 03:46 PM
Headspin
May 15 2008, 06:00 PM
tharg
 
Spherical iron particles are also found in abundance in MSW incinerator fly ash...
tharg
 
the presence of iron particles in ash from incinerators....
tharg
 
The spheres result from the burning.....
particles and spheres are not necessarily the same as previously molten spheres, your avoidance of the word molten is telling. If it is your contention that the iron spheres found in the WTC dust were not molten, then you need to explain why, since it is widely accepted by independent experts that the iron spheres in the WTC dust did melt.

The central issue is that of molten iron, because the presence of molten iron/molten steel contradicts the official story - the implication of molten iron/steel is that there is a source of energy involved in the destruction of the towers and WTC7, not accounted for in the official explanations.
The spheres were clearly molten, that is not the issue Im debating, Headpin.
How they actually were produced and by what particular chemical reaction, hasnt been explained.
a thermate reaction explain the composition and morphology of the wtc molten iron-alumina spheres precisely. your claim of "hasn't been explained" is quite false.
page 17: http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp2.pdf
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JLobdillThermiteChemistryWTC.pdf

Quote:
 
I have shown examples how of these particles are produced from a fire far lower in temperature than that necessary to melt steel, fuelled by products available in any office or house fire.
This claim is unlikely and obscure for many reasons and you have backed it with NO evidence, so it remains just speculative assertions. steel melts at different temperatures according to the carbon composition, iron has a melting point of 1500C. incinerators produce spheres by burning coal at high temperatures. the wtc towers and building 7 were not coal fired incinerators operating at high temperatures.

tharg
 
The conclusion from that, isnt too difficult to work out.
The conclusion from that is that you frequently use logical fallacies and unfounded assertions as explanations.

tharg
 
you have zero evidence for a thermitic reaction
we have just been discussing evidence of a thermite reaction, which indicates you do not understand the meaning of the word "evidence".
for your understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence
reality is not what you want to believe, you are confusing reality with delusion.

tharg
 
<snip gratuitous ad hominem attack in contravention of forum rules>

Edited by Headspin, May 16 2008, 09:58 PM.
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