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| UA93: "Transponder On" at 10:05; according to FAA transcript | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 25 2009, 05:11 PM (1,337 Views) | |
| Woody Box | Apr 25 2009, 05:11 PM Post #1 |
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I'm still in the process of gathering evidence that the radar blip beyond Shanksville which was believed to be Flight 93 by every controller, supervisor, and official, was a real plane and not just an artefact on the Traffic Situation Display. (This TSD theory is promoted by the govt loyalist site, Cheap Shot aka Colin Scoggins, Lynn Spencer etc.). And there is plenty of evidence. But what I found now is so far-reaching, and in the light of Domenick's findings and the shootdown discussion I think it's helpful to make it public right now. It's a transcript within the FAA Command Center, between the National Traffic Management Officer, East Position ("ntmo-e") and Doug Davis of the Operations Center ("doug"). I've highlighted the relevant parts. 1405 (10:05 a.m.) ntmo-e: ok united ninety three we're now receiving a transponder on and he is at eighty two hundred feet doug: now transponder and he's eighty two-hundred ntmo-e: southeastbound still doug: eighty two hundred feet and now getting a transponder on him ntmo-e: correct doug: ok buddy 10:06 ntmo-e: ok we've lost radar contact with united ninety three doug: all right 10:07 ntmo-e: sixteen south of Johnstown where they lost united ninety three and it was heading turning one four zero heading doug: which will put him to what do you think ntmo-e: uh I guess that put him down coming right just west of Dulles doug: ok ntmo-e: if he stays on that heading of course doug: how we doing John with getting stuff on the ground ntmo-e: uuhh we're the're not the're still going to their original destinations if you look at TSD you'll see that the eastern part of the unites states is thinning out doug: ok ntmo-e: uh you know airports like dulles uh new york there we have no aircraft going into there doug: ok 10:08 ntmo-e: ok uh there is now on the on united ninety three doug: yes ntmo-e: there is now a report of black smoke in the last position I gave you fifteen miles of Johnstown doug: from the airplane or from the ground ntmo-e: uhh they're speculating it's from the aircraft doug: ok bud ntmo-e: uhh who hit the ground that's what they're speculation it's speculation only doug: ok 10:10 doug: hey john ntmo-e: yes doug: do we have anything on delta nineteen eighty nine is she still heading to cleveland? ntmo-e: delta nineteen eighty nine was returning to Cleveland and they were no longer treating it like a hijacked aircraft doug: ok ntmo-e: I don't know if he's landed ok; the last position of united I'm going to give some coordinates united ninety three doug: yes ntmo-e: three nine five one north zero seven eight four six west doug: zero seven eight four six ntmo-e: west doug: west doug: all right ntmo-e: you got the thirty nine fifty one north doug: ya thirty nine fifty one north zereo seven eighty four six west ntmo-e: that's the last known position of united ninety three http://www.scribd.com/doc/14141827/NYC-B1-NTMO-East-Position-3-Fdr-Transcript SUMMARY: United 93 switched on the transponder at 10:05 (two minutes after its alleged crash), and the transponder indicated an altitude of 8200 ft. It is heading southeast. One minute later, at 10:06, radar contact with United 93 is lost, at the position 39,51 north, 78,46 west. This point is about 13 miles southeast of the crash site. This is the death of the TSD theory. An extrapolated radar blip (without an underlying plane) is hardly capable of switching the transponder on, is it? There can be no doubt that United 93 did not crash at Shanksville. |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | Apr 25 2009, 06:52 PM Post #2 |
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bravo bravo!!!! |
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| Zaphod 36 | Apr 27 2009, 02:00 PM Post #3 |
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Hi Woody, very important find!
How did you spot this point as ten miles southeast of Indian Lake? |
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| Woody Box | Apr 27 2009, 03:04 PM Post #4 |
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Ok, I should have been more precise. I'm positive that these latlong coordinates are meant as degrees/minutes/seconds, not decimal. If you take the coordinates as decimal, you end up even more away from Shanksville, somewhere at the Maryland/West Virginia border. This point lies within the airspace of Washington Center, however, and the coordinates originally arose from Cleveland Center, that's why the point can't be correct. If you take the coordinates as degrees/minutes/seconds; you get a point about 10 miles southeast of Indian Lake (or about 13 miles southeast of the crash site). |
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| Boonedoggled | Apr 27 2009, 07:40 PM Post #5 |
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No, it isn't. You're trying to combine 2 separate events: 1) the actual United 93 and 2) the TSD United 93 that had its flightplan entered by Linda Justice. |
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| Woody Box | Apr 28 2009, 03:14 PM Post #6 |
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Here's the account of Linda Justice: We were given a data block with which to track UAL93. The aircraft appeared to be heading toward Washington Center airspace. In an attempt to expedite the situation I put a charge of routing in to reflect HGR->DCA. This was only to forward to (the) information to the sectors the aircraft appeared to be tracking toward. I then called POT sector to verbally point him out and flashed the handoff to HGR sector. We took the handoff back when UAL93 changed direction to the east and did not resume the handoff to ZDC. Contact (visually) was lost with the target shortly thereafter. I'm not sure whether I understand you properly. Do you say that when Linda Justice activated the HGR->DCA routing, this caused UA93's transponder to pop up? At 10:05?  |
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| Boonedoggled | Apr 28 2009, 05:32 PM Post #7 |
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No. I believe that United 93's transponder being turned back on caused it to pop up. Again, the real United 93 with its primary and 2 transponder returns have nothing to do with the TSD Flight 93. The old flight plan was updated at 9:56 beginning at Hagerstown and continued on to Reagan until 10:28. According to Scoggins and what I have read, aircraft displayed on the TSD don't even have to exist because they are based on filed flightplans. This would also explain why air traffic controllers reported American 11 over Pennsylvania and why American 77 was pointed out to Kansas City Center. You can hear Linda Justice pointing out United 93 to Potomac and Hagerstown below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyGV_yhPPI&feature=channel_page (sorry it's in video form, I'm still looking for a suitable MP3 hosting site) |
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| Woody Box | Apr 30 2009, 02:23 PM Post #8 |
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Ok. So the United 93 whose transponder vanishes and pops up two or three times (the real United 93) is not identical to the TSD blip. That's what you're saying, right? So may I conclude that you're now convinced that the real United 93 was still airborne at 10:05, when the transponder popped up the last time? |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | Apr 30 2009, 03:57 PM Post #9 |
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i thought the fact that it was reading an altitude pretty much cleared all this up..... if we know it was at 8200 feet at 10:05 then we know it didn't crash in shanksville at 10:03. of course the witnesses in indian lake confirm this. |
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| Zaphod 36 | Apr 30 2009, 05:39 PM Post #10 |
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What about the last blip of the Flight Explorer? Link Initially it shows the estimated arrival time of the new flight plan to DCA at 10:28a. The last blip shows 09:34a as the estimated arrival time. Why? 39 51N -078 46W -> this point is about 13 miles southeast of Indian Lake)Marina and 15 miles north of Cumberland Regional airport(according to Google Earth). If the plane didn`t crashed in this area, it must have landed at an airport nearby. This could have been Cumberland. The runway is 5050 feet long(grooved asphalt)Link - enough for a 757-200. According to Chris Smith, the Air National Guard is based at Cumberland, Md. Link What are you thinking? |
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| Boonedoggled | May 9 2009, 08:15 PM Post #11 |
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Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. Did you notice that the Secret Service believed Flight 93 was still airborne at 10:35, in the document you linked?
Not quite. I've listened to another recording from Cleveland to the Command Center that has the transponder coming back on at approximately 9:03. The report at 905 in the transcript is nothing more than a case of delayed information, IMO. |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 10 2009, 10:59 AM Post #12 |
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i'll assume you mean 10:03 & 10:05. anyways, if you take off the blindfolders and look at the list of witnesses i've presented that corroborates this plane was airborne after the impact do you think you will stop trusting anonymous individuals like 'reheat' and known shills like john farmer or will you ignore the body of evidence proving the plane flew over indian lake and continue to spew their "determinations" in this regard which also completely dismiss all eyewitness accounts coincidentally? |
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| Woody Box | May 14 2009, 02:57 PM Post #13 |
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Interesting. Is there a source for the recording? If not, your statement that Cleveland Center told the Command Center about the "transponder on" at 10:03 (I think this is the time you meant) qualifies for pure hearsay, IMO. You know what? I have a source that Cleveland Center told the Command Center about the "transponder on" at 10:05. Tell me your source, then I tell you mine. |
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| Boonedoggled | May 14 2009, 04:11 PM Post #14 |
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Here you go: http://aal77.com/faa/herndon/mp3/5%20DCC%201905%20Ops%20phone%205107%20Position%207%201315-1415%20UTC.mp3 |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 14 2009, 07:13 PM Post #15 |
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ohhhh is that government operative john farmer? the guy who "quit" all this?? |
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| Boonedoggled | May 14 2009, 08:30 PM Post #16 |
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Dom, are you suggesting that John Farmer fabricated several hundred hours of air traffic control recordings, or are you dismissing them just because he's the one that took the initiative to obtain them? I don't recall John ever stating that he was quitting "all this," I think that's Craig's claim. |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 14 2009, 08:55 PM Post #17 |
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no that is not what i'm suggesting. nowhere did i insinuate farmer fabricated anything. i just don't trust him as a source. all he did was take russell pickering's old job.......
http://911files.info/blog/?p=190 oh wait.....farmer deleted that too so now you and he are free to attempt to rewrite history. |
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| Boonedoggled | May 14 2009, 09:43 PM Post #18 |
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If Woody or History Commons would've obtained the information via the FOIA and hosted it, would you then consider it trustworthy?
No need to rewrite history, Craig quoted him on this forum in another thread. He never said that he was quitting "all this." http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/topic/951041/1/#new Did you ever listen to the ATC recordings of N20VF? The pilot flew over the crash site at 5000 feet, twice. I wonder why no one saw him? http://www.aal77.com/faa/faa_atc/zob/mp3/2%20ZOB%2030%20IHD-R%201358-1410%20UTC%20AP.mp3 http://www.aal77.com/faa/faa_atc/zob/mp3/2%20ZOB%2032%20IHD-R%201409-1421%20UTC%20AP.mp3 Here's a link to a map with its radar returns: (page 8) http://www.scribd.com/doc/13723836/T8-B16-Otis-Langley-and-AF1-Fdr-2-of-2-Radar-Maps-AA-77-C130-UA-93-and-AF-One |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 14 2009, 10:11 PM Post #19 |
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uhhhhh no. i consider this here transcript to be authentic because it is corroborated on the ground through eyewitness accounts which place the plane over indian lake.
john farmer was what you would call a "twoofer". when someone says they're "done" or "kwitting" [spelled that way so your jref friends could understand] that usually entails that they are "finished" with whatever it is they have "kwit". farmer showed his true colors as cit predicted in advance that he would and became a "twaiter to the twoof movement". john farmer was agent pickerings replacement. i predicted on the original loose change forums what operative pickering would do and time has yet again proven me right.
what does the narrator mean when at :20 he says this is a "re-recording"?
because he wasn't there. susan mcelwain, rick chaney, & viola saylor all witnessed a small white plane that they all agree wasn't a corporate jet. susan saw it at treeline leve, rick saw it at just above treeline level, & viola saw it up in the air a very short time later leaving the scene. bob blair, doug miller, & viola saylor all witnessed another white plane that they all agree wasn't a corporate jet. bob & doug saw it at treeline level directly over their heads, and viola saw it at treeline level ascending leaving the crash scene. again, all these eyewitnesses corroborate each other and all confirm it wasn't a corporate jet. 2 other eyewitnesses willing to testify about the event but not be subjected to public ridicule from you and your kind also confirm all of the above. i am calling yates gladwell a liar. he was not there. there was no corporate jet there. this is disinformation and was released after and only because of the evidence i have made public to the american people. are you willing to call all of these witnesses liars? i know they are not. p.s. your "map" is fake too. Edited by Domenick DiMaggio, May 14 2009, 10:12 PM.
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| Woody Box | May 16 2009, 02:41 PM Post #20 |
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Thanks a lot. Another nail in the coffin of the official story, if properly interpretated. You're right insofar as at 00:48:20 in the tape, there comes a message that UA 93's transponder is on again at an altitude of 8.200 ft for a couple of seconds. Given that a voice on the tape determines the start time of the tape as 9:15, this would put the "transponder on" message at 10:03:20. But this doesn't save the official UA 93 crash story, for multiple reasons: 1) There is no verification that the start time of the tape is precise. Anyway, it is not precise up to the second. If the tape starts at 9:15:45, this would put the "transponder on" message at 10:04:05. 2) The official crash time (flight path study) is 10:03:11: https://ntsb.gov/info/Flight%20_Path_%20Study_UA93.pdf So if the tape actually starts at 9:15:00, the "transponder on" message still arrives some seconds after the impact and remains toxic for the official story. 3) About one minute after the "transponder on" message (at about 00:49:20 in the tape), the controller reports that the UA93 primary is coming back and warns that the plane is hard to track at an altitude of 8.200 ft. Again: Toxic for the official story. Now here's my source, also from the Command Center. It looks to be a different position (15) than the audio track (position 7): http://www.911workinggroup.org/foia/911%20COMMISSION%20REPORT%20DATA%20(redact)/5%20AWA%20311%20Letter%20FAA%20First%20Submission%20to%20DOT%20Request%20No%201%20REDACT.pdf Scroll down to page 48. 10:05: ZOB...UAL has turned on transponder (same code) indicating 8.200' One thing is for sure: The Command Center sources flatly contradict the NTSB flight path study. That's easy to show. Where do I find the 8.200 ft in the NTSB flight path? Where do I find the 3951N-07846W position in the NTSB flight path? Can you help me? Edited by Woody Box, May 16 2009, 02:43 PM.
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| Boonedoggled | May 16 2009, 09:18 PM Post #21 |
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The beginning of the phone line recording begins at 22 seconds into the audio. If you listen closely, you will hear what sounds like a record scratch or glitch in the audio. This is the marker that indicates the beginning of the actual phoneline recording after the certification voice. Here is a different recording where the marker is more obvious. After taking the 22 second voice certification into account, we can determine that the first mention of the transponder being on happens at 10:03:01. This is approximately 40 seconds later than what is shown in the RADES data. My next question is: was the information coming from Cleveland TMU occurring in real time? I have reasons to doubt it, one of them being this MFR. Ms. Wernica states that the Lorain sector frequency had to be "patched" to the TMU. If the TMU did not have access to frequency, they most likely did not have access to the radar screen. The second reason being I can hear a female voice in the background of the Command Center recording preempting what is being said on the line.
Yes, but the Severe Weather line at the Command Center also proves that the information being relayed at the NTMO line is belated.
I'll be glad to help whenever I can, Woody. Not too sure about the 8200 feet, I had a computer meltdown a few weeks back and I'm working on gathering up all the information I lost. The 3951N-7846W coordinates do not make any sense to me. ETA: I'm sure you've noticed a few things in the recordings and transcripts. None of the recorded sectors (Lorain, Imperial, Indianhead, or West Moreland) mention a primary popping back up on their screens after they lost it, initially. All of the transcripts that I've read place the last radar returns 15 to 16 miles south of JST, 39 51,-78 46 is 32 miles south of JST. After Gofer06 reported a puff of black smoke, the Imperial sector controller says that's where they lost the aircraft and the Indianhead controller asked the Falcon 20 pilot if he could see smoke at his two o'clock. Why would they be doing this if United 93 popped back up on the radar screens 14 miles south of the crash site? Edited by Boonedoggled, May 16 2009, 10:23 PM.
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| Boonedoggled | May 18 2009, 06:11 PM Post #22 |
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United 93 still airborne at 10:06:24: 1406:24: to John, They confused that, they think the Northwest now is the UA93. John: The 93 we are now receiving a transponder on he is at 8200 feet, SE bound still. Page 5. I'm sure you know where I'm going with this... |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 18 2009, 08:20 PM Post #23 |
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that it didn't crash in shanksville? thats what i get from those coordinates....... i mean thats where you would be going with this if you have an ounce of honesty in your body. |
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| Domenick DiMaggio | May 18 2009, 08:23 PM Post #24 |
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dear boondoggle, according to the transcripts you posted the secret service confirmed that united 93 "went into" camp david and "good thing george wasn't there". your thoughts? i also like the way all the interesting/important stuff is smeared and blurred to attempt to prevent it from being read like at the end when he mentions getting a ping from the cia and can't talk not secure line and how he just got his head handed to him....... Edited by Domenick DiMaggio, May 18 2009, 08:25 PM.
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| Boonedoggled | May 18 2009, 10:22 PM Post #25 |
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Which coordinates, the ones that place it one half mile southwest of the crash site, the ones that place it 13 miles south of the crash site, or the ones that place it 60 miles south the crash site? If you had an honest bone in your body, you wouldn't dismiss everything that contradicts your theory.
I don't put too much stock in anything that came from the Secret Service. You may have noticed that they had a Northwest flight coming out of Pittsburgh towards DC. They also had Flight 93 crashing at Camp David, northeast of Camp David, northwest of Camp David, flying down the river toward DC, flying up the river toward DC, and then eventually crashing in Shanksville.
Click the link again and download the PDF. |
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10:33 PM Nov 23
