Two UA175 took off from Logan: CONFIRMED

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Two UA175 took off from Logan: CONFIRMED; New eyewitness
Topic Started: Dec 30 2008, 04:56 PM (711 Views)
Woody Box	Dec 30 2008, 04:56 PM Post #1
Posts: 118 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: 01/17/08	Finally, an eyewitness has appeared for the 8:23 (non-official) take off time of Flight 175: Steve "Speedy" Miller, first officer on US Airways 6805, departing directly after UAL 175: http://911woodybox.blogspot.com/2008/12/two-flight-175-taking-off-from-boston.html My thanks go to Lynn Spencer, who has interviewed Miller for her book "Touching History".
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noeffects	Dec 30 2008, 07:18 PM Post #2
Posts: 797 Group: Members Member #178 Joined: 01/22/08	abracadabra!. sorry Steve Miller pun. good find Woodybox.
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Woody Box	Jan 14 2009, 03:47 PM Post #3
Posts: 118 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: 01/17/08	In case someone wants to delve into the subject - here are two threads: One in a civilized manner (Democratic Underground) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=230899&mesg_id=230899 The other one is from the JREF forum. I don't intend to join this pseudo-scientific site where people try to outdo each other in presenting awkward manners, but someone calling himself "roundhead" has posted my piece and fights a lonely fight: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=f38d2ec5f9b0bece3386a0f074807e18&t=132052&page=1 Neither at DU nor at JREF anyone bothers to either disprove the 8:14 takeoff or the 8:23 takeoff, but the only possible conclusion - two planes, one taking off at 8:14, another one at 8:23 - is beyond their obviously limited imagination. I was not careless when I postulated two Flight 175's. I have believed that for years and finally have found confirmation (Steven Miller). This is heavy evidence for a plane swap at Logan Airport. Research is still ongoing.
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JackD	Jan 14 2009, 08:58 PM Post #4
Posts: 258 Group: Members Member #253 Joined: 01/31/08	Thanks Woody. I think this is one of the most significant research finds of the year.
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Woody Box	Jan 16 2009, 03:20 PM Post #5
Posts: 118 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: 01/17/08	JackD Jan 14 2009, 08:58 PM Thanks Woody. I think this is one of the most significant research finds of the year. Thanks Jack, but wait - the year is young yet...
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JackD	Jan 16 2009, 04:38 PM Post #6
Posts: 258 Group: Members Member #253 Joined: 01/31/08	Here is today's post by Kevin Fenton of part of an audiotape recording of NEADS staff on AM of 9/11/01. They are just then alerted two a SECOND hijacking. They acknowledge that first hijack is AA11, that second is an United Airlines. This tape appears to be after the first WTC1 strike, or post-8:46am. They are not sure what craft struck tower. http://911blogger.com/node/19113 (its'a youtube clip with audio only) ----- Apparently Michael Bronner of Vanity Fair was allowed to listen to all the NEADS tapes -- this clip is assumed to be part of that. Note that there is absolutely no verification that this tape is correct, unmodified, deleted, remade, spliced, etc -- but it is interesting to hear the "tone' of conversation -- why arent the scope-dopes at NEADS working this like an emergency>? 1) a plane has crashed into the WTC1 -- a mass-casaulty event of all passengers, unprecedented. 2) two aircraft are reported hijacked - and it is suspected that one of them might have been the WTC strike plane. Therefore, at this point, everyone should be at battle stations, trying to race to prevent death. After all, what is NEADS personnel paid to do? Defend the continental United States. There has been no air attack on US since 1941. This is once-in-lifetime opportunity to be the hero. And yet, our NEADS scope-dopes seem to be joking away... some jokes is normal tension relief, but ... really?
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sage	Jan 16 2009, 07:47 PM Post #7
Posts: 3 Group: Members Member #1,020 Joined: 01/16/09	On the taxi-out in Boston, they ((the pilots of US Airways 6805)) waited at the runway's hold-short line, where Miller looked up to watch a United Boeing 767 take off, United Flight 175. The final weight and balance calculations from dispatch came over the ACARS at 8:05, and with that in hand, the crew was ready to fly. Wide-body aircraft produce especially powerful wingtip vortices - horizontal, tornado-like winds off the ends of the wings - which require time to dissipate before other aircraft can take off, so he waited the required three minutes after United 175 departed before he received his takeoff clearance. Wide-body aircraft produce especially powerful wingtip vortices - horizontal, tornado-like winds off the ends of the wings - which require time to dissipate so where is the evidence of this when the plane strikes the tower, surely with the explosion we would see vortices from these tornado like winds, especially as the plane was travelling at its maximum speed of 530+knots, doesnt that mean the tornado like winds from the wingtips would be as big as they get, but we dont notice them, why? Edited by sage, Jan 16 2009, 07:48 PM.
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JFK	Jan 16 2009, 08:15 PM Post #8
Posts: 4,111 Group: Admins Member #108 Joined: 01/17/08	sage Jan 16 2009, 07:47 PM On the taxi-out in Boston, they ((the pilots of US Airways 6805)) waited at the runway's hold-short line, where Miller looked up to watch a United Boeing 767 take off, United Flight 175. The final weight and balance calculations from dispatch came over the ACARS at 8:05, and with that in hand, the crew was ready to fly. Wide-body aircraft produce especially powerful wingtip vortices - horizontal, tornado-like winds off the ends of the wings - which require time to dissipate before other aircraft can take off, so he waited the required three minutes after United 175 departed before he received his takeoff clearance. Wide-body aircraft produce especially powerful wingtip vortices - horizontal, tornado-like winds off the ends of the wings - which require time to dissipate so where is the evidence of this when the plane strikes the tower, surely with the explosion we would see vortices from these tornado like winds, especially as the plane was travelling at its maximum speed of 530+knots, doesnt that mean the tornado like winds from the wingtips would be as big as they get, but we dont notice them, why? That is an extremely good question sage. To the best of my knowledge that topic has never been researched. Perhaps a new thread is in order with frame by frame screen captures of the impact ?
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Woody Box	Jan 24 2009, 05:50 PM Post #9
Posts: 118 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: 01/17/08	An interesting new source has appeared : a recently published 9/11 Commission memo. According to this paper http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-01098.pdf UA 175 sent an ACARS wheels-off message at 8:14 ("nose wheel strut extension"). This confirms what I'm saying: that the "wheels-off time" is triggered automatically by a mechanical sensor. But it doesn't confirm the time 8:23, instead, it matches the ATC/pilot transcript. Pretty odd, isn't it? What choices do we have now? Either (Scenario A) the 9/11 Commission is right in saying that the plane sent the wheels-off message 8:14 to United Airlines headquarters. In this case, it follows inevitably that - when United Airlines transmitted the ACARS data to the BTS, the 8:14 was somehow changed to 8:23 (I'd like to stress that the probability for such a change in an automated process is infinitesimal) AND - that Steven Miller, who demonstrably took off at 8:28, is telling fairy tales when he says that a Boeing 767 of United took off immediately before him * (see footnote) AND - that the erroneous United/BTS transmission coincidentally matches Steven Miller's erroneous account. Or (Scenario B) the BTS database correctly reflects 8:23 as the point when UA 175 lifted off. In this case, it follows that the 8:14 in the 9/11 Commission memo is erroneous. Tracking back the information flow, we find that David Knerr, manager of United, provided Commissioner Miles Kara with the ACARS data. So - either Kerr submitted the wrong datum 8:14 to Kara OR - Kara (as the person responsible for the memo) got the correct datum 8:23, but for some reason it was substituted by 8:14 in the memo. I can't help; Scenario B looks much more realistic to me. How do you think? *(I've already mentioned the theoretical possibility that Miller observed a non-domestic United 767 and falsely thought it was UA 175; non-domestic flights are not registered by the BTS. However, the daily number of non-domestic United 767's scheduled to depart from Logan was certainly small to very small, so this is also a coincidence of infinitesimal probability.)
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JackD	Jan 30 2009, 07:37 PM Post #10
Posts: 258 Group: Members Member #253 Joined: 01/31/08	I think there were at least two United 767s flights out of Logan which were tagged UA175 either AT THE TIME of 9/11/01 or after the fact. This means that one flight possibly held real passengers, and one was not. One speculates that the non-passenger flight was somehow connected to the ongoing war game drills. These events happen and are blended to form one continuous account, which is actually made by multiple planes or radar blips. 1) A UA 175 devates from course 2) A UA 175 changes its transponder 3) a plane crashes into the South Tower of WTC 4) passengers and crew on the passenger-UA175 go missing. ----- the above events may not necessarily be deriving from the same plane. however, they are BLENDED together, leaving out huge mountains of data, in order to create a continuous account. The same thing was done with Lee Harvey Oswald's movements on Nov 22,1963. if you omit all the contradictory evidence, it sort of looks like Lee Harvey went to book depository, shot three times from gun, then ran away & killed JD tippet. but ONLY IF YOU IGNORE ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE. That evidence suggests there were other people doing things that were later ascribed to Oswald. in UA 175 case, there is now two UA 175 taking off from Logan. this is evidence that a deeper scenario was at work, and to probe for infomation which is buried or never known.
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Woody Box	Feb 2 2009, 12:02 PM Post #11
Posts: 118 Group: Members Member #109 Joined: 01/17/08	JackD Jan 30 2009, 07:37 PM I think there were at least two United 767s flights out of Logan which were tagged UA175 either AT THE TIME of 9/11/01 or after the fact. This means that one flight possibly held real passengers, and one was not. One speculates that the non-passenger flight was somehow connected to the ongoing war game drills. These events happen and are blended to form one continuous account, which is actually made by multiple planes or radar blips. 1) A UA 175 devates from course 2) A UA 175 changes its transponder 3) a plane crashes into the South Tower of WTC 4) passengers and crew on the passenger-UA175 go missing. ----- the above events may not necessarily be deriving from the same plane. however, they are BLENDED together, leaving out huge mountains of data, in order to create a continuous account. The same thing was done with Lee Harvey Oswald's movements on Nov 22,1963. if you omit all the contradictory evidence, it sort of looks like Lee Harvey went to book depository, shot three times from gun, then ran away & killed JD tippet. but ONLY IF YOU IGNORE ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE. That evidence suggests there were other people doing things that were later ascribed to Oswald. in UA 175 case, there is now two UA 175 taking off from Logan. this is evidence that a deeper scenario was at work, and to probe for infomation which is buried or never known. Yes Jack, I think you're right. Thanks for your support.
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