| R-E-S-P-E-C-T Revisited; thoughts on the rules of engagement | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 5 2008, 11:17 PM (1,025 Views) | |
| Duke parent 2004 | Aug 5 2008, 11:17 PM Post #1 |
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Lately we’ve seen on this board some exchanges that test the limits of civility. With three months of the presidential campaign looming before us, perhaps a few words of caution are in order if we are to entertain one another without cheering on the lions. In arguing politics for more than forty years, I can say with nary a blush that I’ve never converted anyone over age thirty to my (correct) view of things. And for at least the past thirty years, none of my disputants, whether friend or foe, has dislodged me from even one of my ingenious (though occasionally wacky) prejudices. I suspect many other posters here would also, if pressed, admit to routinely pinning their own obduracy meters. The obvious question presents itself: Should anyone be surprised at this outcome? In 1987 Thomas Sowell published his Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggles. Although a very capable polemicist, Sowell concluded that the two principal political visions of the modern era are probably incommensurable. Perhaps this is why grown-up liberals rarely convert grown-up conservatives--and vice versa. Most of us end up reinforcing the viewpoints of those already sympathetic to our own visions and prejudices. When someone undergoes a sea change in his political beliefs, we tend not to frown on such a conversion only when the convert is still young--i.e., when we are willing to accept the notion that that person is "still in the making." Imagine by contrast what we would think if anything said on this board were to transform a graying liberal into no more than a closet conservative or an arthritic conservative into no more than a reluctant liberal. Wouldn't we wonder about the integrity of someone of years who could be so swayed by such exchanges? I for one would not swell up at converting any of you to my own hyper-conservative views. Before congratulating myself I'd more likely conclude that you had gone through life in Brownian motion—or had not yet kissed age thirty good-bye. The angst verging on loneliness often experienced by later-in-life converts attests to the natural wariness with which they are approached by their newfound confrères—and the outright hostility directed at them by their former compadres, who can’t help feeling embarrassed and betrayed for having once held close to their breasts such “inauthentic” persons. Perhaps the mere passing of the years also contributes to a salubrious modulation of the political juices. At least it has for me and for those of my contemporaries I most admire. I much prefer the company of a liberal who can put politics in its rightful place to that of a conservative who can’t play poker without preaching the virtues of Ayn Rand’s John Galt. My longstanding liberal friends, by the way, concede that their own liberalisms are less pugnacious and more nuanced than the fighting creeds to which they once subscribed. Perhaps we have over the years adopted a more literary (i.e, more sensible) view of the world—one, I think, that prefers attainable small victories to unlikely large ones, and that tolerates the imperfect not because our energies have waned but rather because we can no longer deny the marvelous (and sometimes terrible) unpredictability of the human soul. In short, anyone who can smile at Auden’s “Thou shalt not sit with statisticians, nor commit a social science” is welcome at my table. I am advocating neither quiescence nor indifference. I am advocating the civility that is the precondition of any conversation worth having. I am advocating putting the stronger rather than the weaker interpretation on the ruminations of our fellow posters. I am advocating our remembering that the delight we’ve taken in dredging up the disreputable words of the hoax enablers can also be the delight of our foes should we provide them an arsenal stocked with our own intemperate or ill-considered speech. Above all, I am advocating a modesty of bearing and presentation consonant with a mature understanding of our limitations and a seasoned understanding of the intractability of the world. Of our great writers, none better captured this understanding of the world, and our need to be humble before it, than did Henry James in this passage: Life is a battle. On this point optimists and pessimists agree. Evil is insolent and strong; beauty enchanting but rare; goodness very apt to be weak; folly very apt to be defiant; wickedness to carry the day; imbeciles to be in very great places, people of sense in small, and mankind generally unhappy. . . . In this there is mingled pain and delight, but over the mysterious mixture there hovers a visible rule, that bids us learn to will and seek to understand.  Edited by Duke parent 2004, Aug 16 2008, 08:52 AM.
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| Deleted User | Aug 6 2008, 12:05 AM Post #2 |
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. As usual, very eloquent, Duke Parent 2004. Yes, posters are not going to convert anyone from the other side. If someone wants to get into a dogged battle where there is a clear victor, this is not the place. I would like all views to be aired, and they can be rebutted without attacking or even mentioning the author of the opposing view. Unfortunately, from my previous observations on discussion boards, some people will disregard rules and the only resolution is banning them. That option is available. |
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| Kethra | Aug 12 2008, 01:27 PM Post #3 |
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Thank you Duke! Lovely post. Thank you Tony, as always, you see clearly. Kethra |
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| MikeZPU | Aug 14 2008, 11:29 PM Post #4 |
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I'm watching the women's individual gymnastics, so this will be a short, non-profound post  I just would like to ask how someone who knows about, and understands, the mathematical concepts underlying Brownian motion can write such eloquent prose (and have such an expansive vocabulary?)
Edited by MikeZPU, Aug 14 2008, 11:32 PM.
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| MikeZPU | Aug 15 2008, 12:38 AM Post #5 |
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Just getting over the exhilaration of seeing Nastia and Shawn receive the gold and silver medals, respectively ... wow ... tears in my eyes ... It's very difficult to achieve full conversions, but one can win small battles that may help to win big battles. An example: My mother-in-law, a die-hard Democrat her whole life, never voted for a Republican presidential candidate her entire life ... until the last election. I was flipping through the channels on May 4, 2004, and stumbled upon a press conference live on C-SPAN: "The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Conference." This was before they ran any commercials, this was well before the DNC that nominated Kerry. If you felt the emotion in that room -- and witnessed first-hand the psychological damage that Kerry callously inflicted on these men with the garbage that he spewed after returning from Vietnam (all for the purposes of seeking publicity for himself.) These were men who thought that they had served their country well in Vietnam. Instead, one vet recounted how his wife and daughter approached him one day and wanted to know if he had done the awful things Kerry accused them of in his book. I ran to the TV and quickly popped in a videotape to record it. You can listen to the audio via a link (4th link under "Other video clips) at the web site below: http://www.wintersoldier.com/index.php?topic=Documents Several months later, I was at my in-laws and mentioned the press conference. My mother-in-law says to me "You know, there are some who believe that Bush is behind all of that (the Swift Boat Vet movement.)" I asked "Do you believe that?" And she responded "Well, frankly, I do." I think she saw how despondent I looked. I asked if she would watch the videotape. She agreed. And that November, she voted for the Republican presidential candidate for the first time in her life ... and where does she live? In Ohio (Dayton), the state that gave Bush the election. My brother did the same thing for his father-in-law in Columbus, Ohio -- same basic story, same end result. Of course, I did not convert either to the conservative side. BUT it was something. Edited by MikeZPU, Aug 15 2008, 09:19 AM.
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| joan foster | Aug 15 2008, 04:59 AM Post #6 |
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Thank you so much, Mike. To this day, I wonder what historically insensitive clod decided Kerry should introduce himself to the Dem convention with a snappy salute and "I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty." I cannot even type that without rage. Imagine Brodhead or Burness , years from now,running for office and introducing himself wearing a Duke Lacrosse 2006 sweatshirt??? Emphasizing this period of his life and asking for glory for it...using his support for "the innocent players" as one of his credentials to get your vote. Those of us..the "baby killers" and wives of "baby killers"... who lived through his lying self-promoting scumbag testimony ...were now supposed to draw him to our bosom and hail him as one of our Band of Brothers? This is the most telling part of his complete disrespect for any of us. He was "one of us" now? A pro-military guy? Like Brodhead and Burness had Lacrosse Love surging through their veins! We were supposed to forget and go away. And watch him use us again. Wasn't gonna happen. The Swiftboat Vets were demonized for telling the truth of the history of their.lives ..my life, my husband's life...perhaps as a team member might be someday if they dare cross the party's canditate. The New York Times did the heavy lifting. People who hated Bush despised these guys and believed the worst of them. Just denied them the truth of their experience. Imagine, years from now, people who never experienced this case or understood it...calling Team Members liars if they said Brodhead or Burness was no supporter of theirs...because THAT is the winning narrative!!! Such is the politics of re-invention. It's not about the truth. It's about morphing into whatever it takes to win. Propping up a monied PHONEY who sold out a generation of guys who were just doing their duty...to launch himself. We lived with his defamation. My husband and his classmates, and the men who served with them. We lived with it. The Baby killers. And then he wanted to climb on our backs to ride us to victory again. I will never forget his testimony. NEVER. Either Kerry is a lying scum or my husband and some of the most wonderful men I've ever met are...so I'll leave that there. He is a God-damned Nifong...who put his finger in the air and decided who he needed to defame to get the votes he needed and then said what he had to say, got elected and left us to live with it. Almost every classmate of my husbands that we still have contact with...some Dems too...gave to the Swiftboat Vets. Every day after the convention, I wrote a LOE to some newspaper..every day. Sorry to be so emotional...but this is one chapter of my life that still remains very raw. I see the faces of the kids I knew who didn't come home ...young men just keeping their committments,....and I remember how Kerry characterized all of us. Thanks Mike, for seeing that too. KERRY SAID: "I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia,******not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the****** full awareness of officers at all levels of command. ,******not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the****** full awareness of officers at all levels of command. ,******not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the****** full awareness of officers at all levels of command. MY HUSBAND WAS A COMBAT INFANTRY COMPANY COMMANDER for 6 months and a COMBAT ENGINEER for six months. In Cu Chi where the fighting was heavy. He received a silver star and unlike Kerry SERVED HiS FULL TIME.He returned to help set up the Vietnamese computer system very shortly before the fall of Saigon. Not one of all the honorable men I know saw these daily atrocities they were smeared with by this POLITICAL SCUM. Like the racist taunts and "blunt force trauma"...the Something Happened crowd finds that not enough. Kerry said differently. Nifong said differently. Our politics demand we believe OUR GUY. ,******not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the****** full awareness of officers at all levels of command. Kerry again: "They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. " "I'm John Kerry (smirk, smirk) and I'm reporting for duty." Edited by joan foster, Aug 15 2008, 07:13 AM.
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| joan foster | Aug 15 2008, 07:20 AM Post #7 |
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And then the audacity of McCain to defend him! What a soulless sellout! I was in Hawaii when the first wave of POWs came home. I read the interviews. Now Im supposed to forget that and vote for him. |
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| Clowns | Aug 15 2008, 07:32 AM Post #8 |
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John Kerry has a challenger this year and he just might lose his seat. Alot of people in MA are not happy with John Kerry. |
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| joan foster | Aug 15 2008, 08:04 AM Post #9 |
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Too late. He got it all. This country even found him honorable enough to run for President. Think Nifong (if he'd been successful) years from now in that position. John Kerry would have you believe...as those of you who voted for him must...that my husband and his classmates "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape(d)wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blew up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. " My husband would have preferred to be home with his child and pregnant wife. But he did his duty, what his country required him to do. In the many years of our marriage, I have nebver known him to do a dishonorable thing...But Kerry said these things were commonplace, occured daily. Many people believe that still. "Something happened" worked for Kerry; maybe he was Nifong's inspiration. |
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| MikeZPU | Aug 15 2008, 10:01 AM Post #10 |
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Joan: Thank you for sharing all of that! The parallels that you drew to the LAX case -- excellent insights! I want to say more about that below BUT first I would like to say: Thanks for sharing your talents here, as well as all your critical thoughts and insightful analysis on many fronts. And please convey my heartfelt thanks to your husband for his admirable service to our country! Back to the excellent parallels that you drew to the the LAX case: Yes, Kerry fed the media what they wanted to hear about Vietnam, much the same way that Nifong fed both the local Durham media, as well as the media at large, what they wanted to hear about the LAX case -- what fit their metanarrative. Interestingly, I think that there are also parallels between the Swift Vet story and the Edwards story. The initial Swift Boat Vet press conference held on May 4, 2004 was totally ignored by the media; they simply did not report on it. It was like the press conference never happened. I couldn't believe it! I was just lucky to catch it and record it. (Note: the few representatives of the media that showed up for the press conference -- when it came Q&A time, all their questions were focussed on fishing for any ties to the Bush administration.) I did not want this to become a thread about The Vietnam War, but I would like to just say one more thing about the brave veterans who spoke at the initial Swift Boat Vet press conference. All of these men believed (rightfully so) that they were fighting the "good fight" against the spread of communism. And it ate at them that they were not allowed to win the war. A theme that came across in a very emotional way that day: at the time of the Vietnam war, our brave soldiers were not losing the war on the battlefield in Vietnam, the war was being lost on the battlefield of public opinion back in the states AND the terrible lies that John Kerry told (listed in your post above) were a HUGE part of that. Joan: your husband fought the good fight then, and you are fighting the good fight now -- on many fronts -- thank you! Edited by MikeZPU, Aug 15 2008, 11:07 AM.
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| Duke parent 2004 | Aug 15 2008, 10:14 AM Post #11 |
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Mike, Thanks for the compliment. I salute the wag who said he wouldn’t mind overdosing on Vitamin P. I began college as a student of engineering. Before graduating, I bounced through at least six changes of major, both within engineering and then outside it.. So I did better than just learn in the classroom about Brownian motion; I exemplified it in my own waywardness.
Edited by Duke parent 2004, Aug 15 2008, 02:33 PM.
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| joan foster | Aug 15 2008, 12:31 PM Post #12 |
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Thank you, Mike. "Life is a battle. On this point optimists and pessimists agree. Evil is insolent and strong; beauty enchanting but rare; goodness very apt to be weak; folly very apt to be defiant; wickedness to carry the day; imbeciles to be in very great places, people of sense in small, and mankind generally unhappy. . . . In this there is mingled pain and delight, but over the mysterious mixture there hovers a visible rule, that bids us learn to will and seek to understand." Why is goodness weak? The fact that we equate goodness with patience and a certain genteel passiveness is part of the problem. Goodness should be fierce. |
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| Truth Detector | Aug 15 2008, 06:03 PM Post #13 |
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Joan, you asked a great question. Why is goodness deemed weak? At least in the last twenty five years we have seen people with moral convictions based on Judeo- Christian values be labeled bigots, racists, homophobes, evil, uncaring, - you name it. Those who stand for nothing, who choose to judge nothing by turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to immorality and evil are considered enlightened and progressive. Those who are good cower in the face of these accusations, because they fear not fitting into the social strata they aspire to. Labeling has become one of the most powerful tools of the far left. Those who quote the Bible or spiritual writings are deemed weak because they have entrusted their guidance and moral compass to a power higher than their own. For others, mankind has become a god unto himself. I believe it is virtually impossible to have a moral society without the presence of religion as a guiding force, the guilding force exemplified by the Founders of this Nation. They all acknowledged God in some way. Now we are seeing this country and many other western nations entrust their futures to their own finite wisdom and look at what we and they have to show for it.
Edited by Truth Detector, Aug 15 2008, 06:05 PM.
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| Duke parent 2004 | Aug 15 2008, 08:17 PM Post #14 |
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Goodness is “very apt to be weak” because human beings are very apt to be weak. Henry James’s sage words appeared in 1874 (in an essay about Turgenev). I’m confident they’ll still ring true in 2074 . . . and long thereafter. |
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| Baldo | Sep 6 2008, 12:09 PM Post #15 |
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Now that we are in Political season and the road to the White House is filled with zingers I just wanted to express my feelings. We are joined here because of the players and that should always be our overriding purpose. Tony was smart to split the board. However due the nature of being a Blog Hooligan we can be a feisty lot of individuals. Back on the old board it was always my intention to let the doors of debate fly open during the mad dash to the Presidency. Well I learned then, that no one can control the Hooligans when they want to communicate. You kicked the barn door open and started our debate. I applaud you and admire the desire to speak your mind. Our country was founded on freedom of Speech and so should our board. I just want to share something with you, The original group of LieStoppers were non policital, somehow we understood that politics didn't belong in our group. We had work to do and that was what mattered. Over the long haul we discovered we had mixed point of views politically. It was the broad spectrum of ideas and viewpoints that I believe contributed to our success with our desire to help the guys and help Duke University right its course. We had our fights, but we learned to bite out tongues. Oddly enough I learned most of those fights came about because I didn't understand what another was saying. Some of our members were Duke Alumni and I watched how they struggled with what was happening to their beloved University. I saw them working hard and communicating with other alumni and Professors they had when they attended. In fact some of those Professors were the 88. My point is in all of this is we grew and with the help of the Blog Hooligans we made a difference. Part of that success was listening to each other and realizing we were not always right and we could be wrong. And I promise you I have been wrong. So let's debate, let's discuss, but never throw barbs at each other nor belittle another person. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth and the truth is not left, middle, or right. It's the truth. I do believe we have been consistent that children are off limits. Whether it be Reille's, Crystal's, Bristol's, or Trig. Babies are a gift to an older generation and it is our duty to nurture them and help them grow into adults. It is the compact between generations and has been for eons. I admire the candidates on both sides for their families. Go after their policies and ideas. All four of them have risen in a brutal field and they deserve admiration for that skill. Game On! Edited by Baldo, Sep 6 2008, 12:11 PM.
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