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Ricci:outright reversal..5-4; Ideological lines..reverse dicscrim.
Topic Started: Jun 28 2009, 08:33 AM (3,465 Views)
Joan Foster

Baldo
Jun 30 2009, 09:44 AM
I found affirmative action repugnant to the concept of equality to begin with. None of us will deny the effects of discrimination but the solution to discrimination is discrimination?

It was absurd from the start. The point was to remove the discrimination yet we now have 40 years of intentional discrimination with the resulting polarization that could have been predicted.

It was about Power, building political voting blocs, and it giving the State power over areas of life it shouldn't have.
So true, Baldo! :rose:
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cks
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Carolyn says:

Well put about the reason behind the blinders on lady justice's eyes. Unfortunately, there are those who want and expect emotions to be the governing factor in decision making. I only hope that the republicans hold Sotomayor's feet to the fire. Given that Obama does not like to keep around for long those that become a political liability, I hope that if enough ruckus is raised Obama will have to go back to the drawing board for a selection. If he does he will have to move more to the right than to the left.
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Joan Foster

JESSE JACKSON weighs in...

New Haven, Conn., is a city in which African Americans and Hispanics account for nearly 60 percent of the population; yet, by order of the U.S. Supreme Court, the city must be served --"as it was in the days of undisguised discrimination -- by a fire department in which members of racial and ethnic minorities are rarely seen in command positions."

Today's ruling is deeply flawed and should not be the law of the land.

snip

Context does matter. Six years ago, the U.S. military led the way in support of affirmative action, arguing that the nation was less safe without black and brown officers. For the U.S. military, integration of officer ranks was as important a job qualification as knowing military history or aerospace engineering. We think it matters in other contexts, as well.

What has bedeviled us these last 30 years since Regents of the University of California vs. Bakke is the notion that any pen-and-paper test can reveal everything you need to know in order to assess a candidate's ability to lead. And so we persist with the legal fictions that every qualification can be numerically assessed and that history counts for nothing.

The decision does not address the big questions about affirmative action, namely: How much may white employees be inconvenienced in order to rectify centuries of past discrimination? When, if ever, is it appropriate to use affirmative action to create a diverse workplace?

Affirmative action is justified on the premise that diversity is good for us as a society, not that diversity rectifies centuries of wrongdoing. Our penchant for rugged individualism and laissez-faire survival of the fittest seduces us into believing that every person is entitled to every benefit society has to offer and that no individual should pay a price for the greater good of the society as a whole.

snip

This reasoning depends on a hyperindividualistic interpretation of American rights. Blacks were enslaved as a group. They were segregated as a group. They were held in economic and political subjugation in the South for decades following Reconstruction as a group. But now that we have reached the enlightened 21st century, remedies for these crimes cannot take the group stigma against blacks into account. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution protects individuals and not groups. We disagree.

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: Perhaps it is time to scrap the entire legal analysis of voluntary efforts to address discrimination. Perhaps we should permit employers and schools to devise plans to foster inclusion that straightforwardly account for past discrimination. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

For hundreds of years, white males have enjoyed more than 95 percent of the best jobs, the best housing, the best incomes, the best health care, whether they were best suited or not. When small steps are taken to level the playing field, the court determines that no inconvenience to white applicants is permissible. The firefighters had no "right" to be promoted, merely an opportunity."


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cks
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If one wants something badly enough, then one will work hard and study very diligently in order to get what he or she desires. While no one is guaranteed a promotion, when qualifications are set up for a promotion (like the test in the Ricci case) and there are people who meet the standard that is set, then they have a right to expect that that promotion will be theirs. It is not right, legally or morally, to look at the test results and say, sorry, my bag, we wanted more polka dot people to score well enough to be hired and none did, so we are going to throw out the test results. That is what the city of New Haven did in the Ricci case. Just because a certain group of people do not do well does not in and of itself make the test an invalid one as there couldbe many reasons for that failure.
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brittany

Joan Foster
Jun 30 2009, 09:36 AM
Here's how I see it.

Skin hue is just that.

There should be a guarantee of equal opportunity but no guarantee of equal outcome. Do the work, try your best, that's life.

I'm sad for my Grandmother that she encountered "Irish need not apply" signs when she tried to get work in NYC. That's about HER not ME. I don't need a NYC system rigged for all eternity for myself and my progeny to compensate me or punish them.

There is an insult in all this: that somehow without all these new tests, multiple chances, and special treatment, Blacks can't get those promotions. Somehow, this insult implies they NEED this stuff.

I say ...NONSENSE! Those pity parties degrade more significantly and more insultingly...than any racist's words.

Do what Ricci did...work hard, hire tutors, make tapes.


Signs in store windows also said "No Italians. Nodogs". Want ads in the 1930's read "Italians need not apply".

But Joan is right.We are generations beyond that.
Edited by brittany, Jun 30 2009, 11:10 AM.
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brittany

Quote:
 
For hundreds of years, white males have enjoyed more than 95 percent of the best jobs, the best housing, the best incomes, the best health care, whether they were best suited or not. When small steps are taken to level the playing field, the court determines that no inconvenience to white applicants is permissible. The firefighters had no "right" to be promoted, merely an opportunity."
I am sick of affirmative action. White males are treated as the scum of the earth.They are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to hiring or promotions.I have seen it with my husband and fear for my son.
Edited by brittany, Jun 30 2009, 11:38 AM.
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striker

Jessee is another "we want something for nothing". Black's are on their ears with poor leadership, a chip on their shoulder and the never ending mantra that they are victims. When will black leadership tell them that they are FREE. But they won't listen. They must move forward in their blackness instead of moving ahead in step with Western Civilization. They are a doomed race, they don't get it.
Where are the leaders nailing the young to not get pregnant, to stay in school, and to be good fathers and mothers to their children. As a small example, Durham has every conceivable program to
"give a kid a window", "open a door", "provide an opportunity", "lend a helping hand". When will the insanity STOP? Continue calling out Jackson and other false leaders and race baiters for who they really are. They are a huge part of the problem. As Obama spends billions nationwide on black youths going from house to house insulating attics and windows and doors and pipes with materials bought from Black enterprises, I can only say "what the _uck"!!!!!!!! The local community organizers are licking their lips over the prospect of Billions being lost in the newest version of the shell game.
This is going to unbelievable.
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brittany

Joan Foster
Jun 30 2009, 10:16 AM
JESSE JACKSON weighs in...

New Haven, Conn., is a city in which African Americans and Hispanics account for nearly 60 percent of the population; yet, by order of the U.S. Supreme Court, the city must be served --"as it was in the days of undisguised discrimination -- by a fire department in which members of racial and ethnic minorities are rarely seen in command positions."

Today's ruling is deeply flawed and should not be the law of the land.

snip

Context does matter. Six years ago, the U.S. military led the way in support of affirmative action, arguing that the nation was less safe without black and brown officers. For the U.S. military, integration of officer ranks was as important a job qualification as knowing military history or aerospace engineering. We think it matters in other contexts, as well.

What has bedeviled us these last 30 years since Regents of the University of California vs. Bakke is the notion that any pen-and-paper test can reveal everything you need to know in order to assess a candidate's ability to lead. And so we persist with the legal fictions that every qualification can be numerically assessed and that history counts for nothing.

The decision does not address the big questions about affirmative action, namely: How much may white employees be inconvenienced in order to rectify centuries of past discrimination? When, if ever, is it appropriate to use affirmative action to create a diverse workplace?

Affirmative action is justified on the premise that diversity is good for us as a society, not that diversity rectifies centuries of wrongdoing. Our penchant for rugged individualism and laissez-faire survival of the fittest seduces us into believing that every person is entitled to every benefit society has to offer and that no individual should pay a price for the greater good of the society as a whole.

snip

This reasoning depends on a hyperindividualistic interpretation of American rights. Blacks were enslaved as a group. They were segregated as a group. They were held in economic and political subjugation in the South for decades following Reconstruction as a group. But now that we have reached the enlightened 21st century, remedies for these crimes cannot take the group stigma against blacks into account. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor wrote that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution protects individuals and not groups. We disagree.

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: Perhaps it is time to scrap the entire legal analysis of voluntary efforts to address discrimination. Perhaps we should permit employers and schools to devise plans to foster inclusion that straightforwardly account for past discrimination. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

For hundreds of years, white males have enjoyed more than 95 percent of the best jobs, the best housing, the best incomes, the best health care, whether they were best suited or not. When small steps are taken to level the playing field, the court determines that no inconvenience to white applicants is permissible. The firefighters had no "right" to be promoted, merely an opportunity."


My father told me that years ago, down the street from my father's family, lived an Italian family. My father was good friends with the son who was his age. The neighbor was very smart and attended law school,but because he was Italian and had a "swarthy" complexion (the term used at the time),no one would hire him.The only job he could get was cleaning stoves.

I will never forget that story.

Edited by brittany, Jun 30 2009, 03:42 PM.
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LTC8K6
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Assistant to The Devil Himself
Another good article from Powerline:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/06/023932.php
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brittany

NYTimes

In New Haven, supporters of the white firefighters applauded the ruling, while minority firefighters did not hide their dismay.

Matthew Marcarelli, a white lieutenant who qualified as a captain on the test, said there had been lingering racial tension at the department. “Now that the highest court in the land has ruled,” Mr. Marcarelli said, “hopefully that will put a lot of this to bed.”

Gary Tinney, the president of the Firebirds, the black firefighters’ association, said black firefighters would sue if the old promotion test was certified. Mr. Tinney said the ruling “definitely will have an adverse effect not only on promotion, but hiring policies.”
Mayor John DeStefano Jr. said at a news conference that the court’s rulings had for some time been moving away from reasonable efforts to remedy discrimination.

“I have no doubt that the firefighters who brought the lawsuit genuinely felt that they had done nothing wrong, and that they were egregiously wronged,” Mr. DeStefano said. “I also have no doubt that there is another group of firefighters today who feel that the rules are constantly stacked against them. And that when they finally do start to get ahead, the rules get changed.”
Edited by brittany, Jun 30 2009, 11:49 AM.
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Joan Foster

brittany
Jun 30 2009, 11:48 AM
NYTimes

In New Haven, supporters of the white firefighters applauded the ruling, while minority firefighters did not hide their dismay.

Matthew Marcarelli, a white lieutenant who qualified as a captain on the test, said there had been lingering racial tension at the department. “Now that the highest court in the land has ruled,” Mr. Marcarelli said, “hopefully that will put a lot of this to bed.”

Gary Tinney, the president of the Firebirds, the black firefighters’ association, said black firefighters would sue if the old promotion test was certified. Mr. Tinney said the ruling “definitely will have an adverse effect not only on promotion, but hiring policies.”
Mayor John DeStefano Jr. said at a news conference that the court’s rulings had for some time been moving away from reasonable efforts to remedy discrimination.

“I have no doubt that the firefighters who brought the lawsuit genuinely felt that they had done nothing wrong, and that they were egregiously wronged,” Mr. DeStefano said. “I also have no doubt that there is another group of firefighters today who feel that the rules are constantly stacked against them. And that when they finally do start to get ahead, the rules get changed.”
Well, here's the plan:

"Gary Tinney, the president of the Firebirds, the black firefighters’ association, said black firefighters would sue if the old promotion test was certified."

The Black firefighters will sue now. Obama will seat a few more judges. The case will come back to SCOTUS. Black firefighters will win.

Reverse discrimination becomes rule of the land.

Simple.
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Tidbits

Joan Foster
Jun 30 2009, 05:19 AM
Tidbits, I jumped in and read Ginsberg's opinion too. I cannot speak as a lawyer but here's my humble impression as a "civilian.". The progressive view articulated here is that one has to rework and re-write and redesign these tests UNTIL you get the minority results you are looking for.
Blah, blah, blah..60%-40%...blah, blah, blah "equipment operator"...blah, blah, blah, verbal-oral.
Indeed.

Quotas

use another word to get there

If G's plan doesn't work, it too would be flawed, try another until the result is like quotas (use another word).

Her view is 5,000 words that mean quotas.

But she still would have reversed summary judgment.

See G page 33, and ft 10.

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Tidbits

Joan Foster
Jun 30 2009, 12:01 PM
The Black firefighters will sue now. Obama will seat a few more judges. The case will come back to SCOTUS. Black firefighters will win.

Reverse discrimination becomes rule of the land.

Simple.
or

amend the law
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DukieInKansas

I wonder if anyone has interviewed all those that took the test and asked about how they prepared for the test. It would be interesting to see if there is a relationship between the time spent studying for the test and the grade on the test.

I think I'll apply for a government grant to study this. Did you study prior to taking the test? If yes, please indicate how many hours per week you spent studying for the test? How many weeks? Of course, to get valid comparisons, I'd have to ask questions regarding their race - can I do that?
Edited by DukieInKansas, Jun 30 2009, 12:18 PM.
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Tidbits

DukieInKansas
Jun 30 2009, 12:17 PM
I wonder if anyone has interviewed all those that took the test and asked about how they prepared for the test. It would be interesting to see if there is a relationship between the time spent studying for the test and the grade on the test.

I think I'll apply for a government grant to study this. Did you study prior to taking the test? If yes, please indicate how many hours per week you spent studying for the test? How many weeks? Of course, to get valid comparisons, I'd have to ask questions regarding their race - can I do that?
Sure.
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