| When Did Nifong Learn About Crystal's Rape Claim?; J in C Challenges March 23 Copier Story | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 14 2009, 09:34 AM (3,090 Views) | |
| sceptical | Jun 14 2009, 09:34 AM Post #1 |
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What did Mike Nifong know, and when did he know it? This topic concerns who originated the attempted frame-up of the Duke Lacrosse team. DA Nifong claimed in testimony before the State Bar than he did not learn about the incident until the afternoon of March 23 when he saw a copy of the Non-Testimonial Identification Order (NTIO) on a copy machine. By making this claim he distanced himself from actions and events prior to March 23. If this is true, then the Durham PD has increased culpability for the frame-up attempt. John in Carolina and others have debunked this story and insist Nifong knew about the case as early as March 14. This is more than just academic debate-- the relative culpability of the defendants in the civil cases will determine the amount of damages should the lacrosse team members win their lawsuits. Here are some of J in C's blogs on the subject: http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/06/background-re-nifong-knew-before-mar-24.html http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/06/nifong-circumstantial-evidence-he-knew.html http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/06/why-nifong-knew-about-case-before-mar.html J in C's latest post is a logical discussion of the importance of "courthouse buzz" and the interconnection between police, prosecutors, lawyers and hospital personnel: http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/06/why-nifong-knew-on-mar-14.html Edited by sceptical, Jun 14 2009, 09:44 AM.
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| abb | Jun 14 2009, 09:39 AM Post #2 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor “Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest is preferable.” |
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| sceptical | Jun 14 2009, 09:43 AM Post #3 |
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Here are some good comments on J in C's latest post: http://johninnorthcarolina.blogspot.com/2009/06/why-nifong-knew-on-mar-14.html Ex-prosecutor said... I agree 100% with your analysis. Magnum's claims would have spread like wildfire through a courthouse, all of which are hotbeds of gossip and juicy stories. No assistant would take any action in a case such as this without getting the OK of the DA especially at election time. The truth in this case will be revealed only by depositions. Sorry that you are retiring the blog soon, but your detailed and thoughtful analyses have given us the background to better follow as the civil cases grind along. Thanks. 10:25 PM Anonymous said... JinC: Spot on regarding the informal reasons why Nifong knew about the case prior to when he admitted that he became aware. In any institutional setting, there is always the morning buzz that occurs before people settle down to the mundane (or exciting, depending upon one's employment) work of the day. The topic is always what has occurred since the last time people met. That is human nature. Given, as you note, Nifong's candidacy for the DA position in a primary that was by no means a shoe in, the very last thing that he, his devoted wife, or his myriad supporters and hangers on would want to have happen would be for him to be "ambushed" by a local reporter over the allegations of a rape involving a poor, single, local black woman at the local state college by wealthy, collegiate athletes who who white, male, and from the north who just so happened to attend the bastion of privilege - Duke University. Also, since the "crime" happened in a neighborhood which had had its share of "problems" with Duke students to the extent that it had a pipeline to the police department and this neighborhood would also be one that Nifong would naturally look to for support at the ballot box 9as well as financial contributions to his campaign, it becomes even more preposterous to believe that Nifong was unaware of the rape allegations until the copy machine incident. The old saying still holds true -what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive. The stories that Nifong has told from top to bottom are just as preposterous as are the many variations the story told by Crystal Mangum. cks 11:11 PM Larry said... It does seem incredible that neither nifong nor his lovely wife Cy would not have heard of the event that occurred the night of the 13th into the early morning hours of the 14th. Listen, a lot of people knew that nifong was a primary candidate and that he was way behind in the polls. Both nifong and Cy could have been informed of this opportunity placed before them by some excited campaign worker or friend who would have called them directly, not following the formal or normal channels within the campaign. ( I would guess someone called Cy. I am not so sure that nifong would have realized this case as his opportunity. After all, it was concluded to be a robbery case, not a rape case.) Then the DAMN, CY thinking caps went on and like a blinking incandescent light bulb the frame started. The truth had to be known early on that a false rape was presented to the ED at Duke and the case turned into a robbery investigation. BUT....since CGM was well known and someone(s) living in a well manicured neighborhood in Durham knew that CGM could be stupid enough to follow up with the accusations even though they were dropped earlier. Someone knew about CGM's medical problems from previous interaction with her and her family. Someone(s) in the DA's office knew that gottlieb would want in on this as well. The only question remaining, if this action of the night really occurred who was the fine citizen of Durham NC that called Cy (nifong) to let them know that their chariot had arrived. Again, I don't think, even if nifong was updated the morning of the 14th during a morning meeting with his staff that he would A) be smart enough to know the opportunity he had or B) take the chance right then and there to initiate a rape investigation, or C) if he did conclude that he could make this non rape viable or set false allegations into motion, that everyone or anyone in the DA's office would go along. Nope, it is still my opinion that Cy set the frame and cover for nifong into motion. I believe such based on the assignment of gottlieb to nifong when nifong took over the case. Nifong would not leave a trail leading back to him that he was the responsible party to that assignment. Someone high up in the Durham PD or the managers office owed someone a favor. Just wondering if a favor was owed Cy by one chief who disappeared' working behind the scene to allow the police events to occur the way they did. That favor or plan would have taken a few days to put into action. Lets say around the 24th, when the "discovery" laying on the copier was made. 8:43 AM |
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| sceptical | Jun 14 2009, 10:05 AM Post #4 |
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(Here is my own comment) sceptical said... John, Your contention that courthouse buzz insured that Nifong would have known about Mangum's charges is logical but not entirely persuasive. In the first few days of the incident there was a lot of confusion about who lived at 610 N. Buchanan, whether they were Duke students, what Duke sports team was involved, etc. In retrospect everything is clear, but at the time there was the law enforcement equivalent of the "fog of battle." Furthermore, B. Jones and John Shelton of the Durham Police, Chris Day of the Duke Police,and others at the scene had concluded that there was no evidence to proceed on Mangum's charges. Jones had planned to close the file. At the Duke ER, Mangum was left to lie on a gurney for hours until the day shift arrived-- no one there took her seriously (seven nurses and physicians) until ultra-feminist Tara Levicy R.N. got involved. Now remember I am just talking about the first two to three days after the party. Once Sgt. Mark Gottlieb became engaged with the case on March 16, the situation changed. But before then, I doubt there was much "buzz" because of the skepticism concerning Mangum's claims by Duke ER staff and by the Durham and Duke Police who responded. There was also the initial confusion as to who held the party and whether they had a connection to Duke, let alone represented a Duke sports team. Your information about the Durham courthouse crowd is important and interesting. But the incestuous connections between police, prosecutors, and attorneys do not prove that Mangum's charges were a topic of conversation early on. The first mention of the case in the press was the brief notice in the N&O on March 18. There is no mention of any connection between the incident and Duke students other than to say it happened near the campus. The N&O's second report on March 19 quotes Gottlieb and say it happened at a party involving both Duke students and non-students. Again the explosive racial connotation and athlete connection were not mentioned. Even the Trinity Park listserv sent out by Gottlieb would not necessarily raise eyebrows: "Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:15 am "The Durham Police District 2 Criminal Investigations Violent Crimes Unit is conducting an investigation concerning a rape of a young woman by three males at 610 N. Buchanan that was reported on 3/14/06 in the early morning hours." In retrospect, the Mangum's charges were a big deal, but just after the incident Mangum's claims were not unlike dozens of other claims of sexual assault the police deal with all the time. So, while your conjectures concerning courthouse buzz and Cy's connection are plausible, I still do not think they PROVE that Nifong knew about the case before March 23 (when he claims he saw the NTIO application) and March 24 (when he talked to Capt. Lamb about taking it over). Teaser: I am working on a post that will show he knew about the case at least by March 22-- stay tuned. sceptical 10:07 AM Edited by sceptical, Jun 14 2009, 04:17 PM.
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| chatham | Jun 14 2009, 01:05 PM Post #5 |
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I am sure that this case would have moved forward without knowing that Duke students of some kind were involved. It was not a requirement, just a convenience to find out that the Duke LAX team was involved. Sports team make so much better of a story. It does not preclude that someone would have chatted about it either formally or informally to nifong or someone related to him. After all he needed a boost to his campaign and a story like this might do it. Maybe someone said, What do you mean they dropped the rape claim, even if false, this could help my campaign. Reinstate it and investigate these guys. Get a search warrant. If the story was true that a gang rape by some white guys on a black girl happened, that alone would not have justified nifongs lying about when he learned about the case. But if nifong or someone close to him had knowledge that a white on black rape may have occurred and it also involved Duke then that would be cause for nifong to lie about when he learned things he may have already put into action. It is easier to frame city folk than students who are part of the very well endowed Duke University. And the reason for that is that nifong and others knew they could get so much more milage out of a white on black rape if a well known university sports team was involved. Besides, I know I would immediately think this incident may have occurred at a Duke owned house or by Duke students just because of its location within the TP area. What normal neighbor would hire a stripper unless there was a out of control party going on and that had to be Duke students. What are the odds, huh? Either way, nifong would have gotten milage out of this case for his campaign. He just got more milage out of a false claim of a white on black rape by a college sports team. I also believe that even an accusation of a white male on black female rape or sexual assault would have been news immediately. After all, how many such claims are ever made. Maybe people laughed at it while just talking about what happened in passing or at the water cooler gossip. HAHAHAHA, a white male on black woman rape? When did that ever happen? etc. etc. But someone took it seriously enough, very early on, to reverse the decision for dropping this case, long before nifong clued us in on when he said he found out about this serious crime. This then gets us back to the fact that this frame was set up very early, and if the scuttlebutt was never discussed with nifong or others when that decision to reinstate the rape claim was made, then everyone was left out of the loop. Gottlieb, supposedly the one to reinstate the rape theory without being told, would have been working alone and his actions would have gone unnoticed by everyone? I doubt it. But if nifong already knew about what was happening, then he was in the loop very early on and most likely part of the set up early on to pursue these guys falsely for political gain. He would then whisper, thank you Cy. |
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| ~J~ is in Wonderland | Jun 14 2009, 05:37 PM Post #6 |
~J~ is in Wonderland
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sceptical, don't work to hard on the stay tuned part. Listen folks, to me -(now), this is pretty clear. Within 24/48 hrs or maybe less, the wagons circled around this frame. imo, this was turned into a frame, by the politics surrounding the election. Mike could not have done this alone. He didn't know how. The cops involved didn't know how. The frame, imo developed inside the downtown loop. Inside the court house, where people were scared they would loose their jobs .By someone who wanted to be the DA other than Mike. Also- just outside of the court house where many lawyers were playing both Freda and Mike so they would still get their favors from whoever won. Many of these lawyers knew or thought they knew about how politics worked. When these same people jumped on board the raped train, you have a winner who will give you favors and others keep their job. Freda was ahead something like 17% in the polls. I never seen the polling until way later in the summer. I was told that one was accidentally drop where he would see it. If she was showing that much ahead, he had no possible way of making up the difference before the election. imo It was widely known that Freda had said, when she won she was bringing a big broom to the swearing in ceremony. The copier story imo was BS. That was just a good date and story to pick to tell the public. Don't forget, CGM was known to some inside the court house before 3-13. If anyone can find the video from the night he won the election with Greta, listen to what he says. He says something like, I didn't do anything to win other people did. I walked away before he finished the interview and never looked back. |
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| sceptical | Jun 14 2009, 05:51 PM Post #7 |
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j, I highly value your opinion but your post is obscure to me. I agree that politics played a major role in the attempted frame-up because Nifong was losing and desperate. But if Nifong and the police did not hatch the frame-up, as you suggest, who did? What do you mean by the downtown loop? The city officials (Baker, Bell)? The police command (Chalmers, Hodge)? The courthouse lawyers? My view is that Mark Gottlieb is the initial perpetrator, rescuing the case file from being closed and taking on the case. However, his activities had to have been approved by higher-ups in the police department, including Jeff Lamb and possibly Ron Hodge. I do not believe the copier story claiming that Nifong learned about the case on the afternoon of March 23, but I do believe Gottlieb got the ball rolling before Nifong was involved. I hope you will be able to comment more because you have a unique perspective on this issue. Thanks! |
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| Lodge Pro 345 | Jun 14 2009, 06:05 PM Post #8 |
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. Stephens knew information about evidence - or the status of evidence - before it was presented to the court. In the same courtroom where Ronald Stephens makes comments on evidence that has yet to be presented - Nifong says he doesn't know, indicating the analysis hasn't been done. How can a Judge know about evidence before it's presented by someone in court? The transcript from that hearing was bizarre. Stephens was obsessed with secrecy about phone calls in a multiple-felony case carrying a 30 year sentence too. That was tantamount to Kato Kaelin saying he had some right to privacy about him living there or going to McDonalds with O.J. that night - or hearing something outside. It's worse - it's the Judge thinking Kato had some right to privacy and couldn't be mentioned in the proceedings. . |
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| MikeZPU | Jun 14 2009, 06:28 PM Post #9 |
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This is a VERY interesting post -- VERY thought provoking. The quote of yours that I bold-faced above: could you possibly be referring to Tracey Cline ???  Remember Nifong always said that Tracey Cline would try the case with him, right by his side. Tracey Cline obviously wanted to eventually be DA, and if Freda had won and sweeped house ... And who may have wanted Tracey Cline to be DA? Mayor Bill Bell? There is a lot of food for thought in ~J~'s post! Edited by MikeZPU, Jun 14 2009, 07:37 PM.
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| chatham | Jun 14 2009, 06:59 PM Post #10 |
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I just dont see gottlieb as being persuasive enough to convince any superior that he should change the robbery investigation into a gang rape investigation in an area of Durham that he was essentially banned from, TP, and in a house that was well known to the cops to be a Duke house with real Duke students living there. I still question why gottlieb was asked to investigate anything to begin with, Maybe someone suggested to Jones to assign the robbery investigation to gottlieb. I agree ( of course ) with ~J~ that there were too many well connected people worried about a freda black win in the primary. Someone immediately saw an advantage for nifong in the election with some knowledge that this incident occurred in the TP area of Durham at a Duke house. And, it was real close to the primary election with enough time for making a hero of nifong to the black voters. And it took a day or two for even a search warrant to be issued which means to me that someone intervened with gottlieb to reclassify this case from robbery to rape. And i don't believe it was gottlieb's superiors because there was no evidence to change the pending charges of robbery to a rape. And if it was changed to a rape charge why was it not given back to Jones who originally investigated the events of the evening? The timeline immediately after the events at the hospital were for sure long enough to get the framers in place to move this robbery case to a gang rape case for political advantage.There is no silence among the politically connected. This case is just to weird with what happened from the time at the Kroger's parking lot until CGM was sent home from Duke. Many would have talked about the crazy night they just had. It would not have been kept a secret, even the part about the incident not being a gang rape. Of course they knew right away it was not a rape and that is why the Duke ED waited for tara to show up rather than call in a real SANE for a worthless exam. She was examined by doctors and nurses and someone must have observed that there was no pain, no brusing, no swelling on the face or anywhere, no vaginal or anal bleeding, etc. etc. Crystal entered the Duke ED dressed as a stripper, not ripped apart the way a gang rape would have made her look. There is no neat gang rape. She was intact and pleasant if not a little sleepy and drunk or drugged. She had no consistent story. It would have been the talk of the town by those involved to anyone who wanted to listen to a funny story that a black stripper claimed a gang rape by white guys over in TP. ====================== Hey did ya hear about this black girl that claimed she was ganged raped by a bunch of white guys? It turned out to only be a robbery or something at some stripper party some dookies were having last night on Buchanan Blvd? She probably lost the money. AHHHH hahahaha, when was the last time anyone claimed a white guy raped a black stripper? |
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| ~J~ is in Wonderland | Jun 14 2009, 07:32 PM Post #11 |
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~J~ is in Wonderland
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Dang it!  I have responded to your post twice. I keep loosing my internet connection before it post. That repairman better get here tomorrow or this service is going to be terminated. I have has intermediate service since last Wednesday!! grrrrrrrrrrr |
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| ~J~ is in Wonderland | Jun 14 2009, 07:38 PM Post #12 |
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~J~ is in Wonderland
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MikeZPU
Sorry Mike, I wasn't talking about Tracey. She would have been the next in line after Mike got his 3+years in. |
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| ~J~ is in Wonderland | Jun 14 2009, 07:48 PM Post #13 |
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~J~ is in Wonderland
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3 times in the last 10 min. I have lost connection. |
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| MikeZPU | Jun 14 2009, 08:03 PM Post #14 |
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Okay, I'll keep thinking about it. (Of course, if the rape train went south with Nifong on board, Tracey could get the DA position much earlier ... which is what happened ... ) |
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| chatham | Jun 14 2009, 08:10 PM Post #15 |
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Well, there were only 3 people running in the primary. One was nifong, one was Black and one was Keith Bishop. |
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