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| A bit of a gotcha in Gottlieb's Bar deposition; re: thread on Report on Forensics Labs | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 20 2009, 07:50 PM (1,196 Views) | |
| MikeZPU | Feb 20 2009, 07:50 PM Post #1 |
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Hat Tip to SC for the thread "Forensic Crime Labs Savaged in National Report" at the link below: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Liestoppers_meeting/topic/1198739/1/#new Here's a snippet from the NY Times piece on the report:
The bold-faced quote above certainly was a large part of the problem with DNASI. Not only did Nifong and Gottlieb influence what Meehan reported, they also influenced what DNA tests he did. There was kind of a gotcha in Gottlieb's testimony (one of many: others here have pointed out a gotcha relative to Gottlieb making a statement that clearly indicated he knew the proper protocols for doing suspect ID via a photographic array, then he caught himself) See the bold-faced quote below. This is Gottlieb describing a portion of one of the meetings that he, Himan, and Nifong had with Meehan at DNASI. Meehan was supposed to conduct DNA testing on items in the rape kit. There is absolutely no need for Meehan to know anything about what Mangum supposedly claimed in her statement to Gottlieb and Himan in order for him to conduct the DNA testing that he was tasked with via court order (items in the rape kit.) Yet, here's Gottlieb relating that he said to Meehan "Remember, I told you she claimed ..." Shortly after that, Meehan concocted a test on the fingernails that produced a 98% non-exclusion mixtures result for Dave Evans. http://members.dslextreme.com/users/campyskakel/gottlieb_depo.html page 132 Sgt. M.D. Gottlieb - 4/1 9/0 7 1 who called it, who wanted the meeting to happen? 2 A. Dr. Meehan had called the Police 3 Department to give results and he was giving results to 4 Investigator Himan and I. And I am not a scientific 5 person as far as understanding things. And he was 6 going through a lot of information that was over my 7 head, I wasnt quite understanding it. 8 I called up Mr. Nifong, let him know 9 that he had some results back, I wasnt clear on 10 everything, was he interested in going there so I 11 didnt have to try to relay the information to him and 12 mix it up. 13 Q. okay. 14 A. I just wanted to make sure the 15 information was delivered accurately. 16 Q. When you got there on the 10th, tell me 17 what you recall was discussed with Dr. Meehan. 18 A. Dr. Meehan basically said that, if I'm 19 remembering correctly, there wasnt DNA located. I 20 asked, There was nothing under the fingernails? 21 Because, remember, I told you she claimed -- he said, 22 We dont have fingernails. 23 And I had asked if they had hair so 24 that we could -- you know, if there was any hair left 25 over and, you know, head hair and stuff like that and Edited by MikeZPU, Feb 21 2009, 09:56 AM.
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| Baldo | Feb 20 2009, 08:14 PM Post #2 |
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I have always looked with skepticism the fixation with the fingernails. Especially knowing some were not collected by the DPD CSI lab team & left at the 610. There was not a match. There was no DNA under the fingernails because what sampled was in a solution. It is all Gottlieb's misdirection IMHO |
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| JSwift | Feb 20 2009, 08:37 PM Post #3 |
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I have always wondered about the "coincidence" that Crystal "identified" Evans in the April 4 lottery and that Evans was not excluded from the souplike mixture taken from the extra fingernails. Many have speculated that Crystal was coached. When one considers that some of the fingernails were not taken by CSI, but rather Gottlieb's team, the chance of mischief increases. A single DNA "match" would lend credibility to an otherwise fatally flawed procedure. Edited by JSwift, Feb 20 2009, 09:04 PM.
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| DMom | Feb 20 2009, 08:38 PM Post #4 |
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"the chance of mischief increases" J Swift's irony never ceases to amaze. THANKS |
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| Bill Anderson | Feb 21 2009, 09:07 AM Post #5 |
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I guarantee that Crystal was coached. Her ability to recall what people were wearing was a bit much, given her previous incoherence. Ekstrand deals with that issue in his complaint. Gottlieb also lied in his bar testimony, so the guy was batting a thousand. One has to ask why Durham puts up with so many liars, from its prosecutors to its police.
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| MikeZPU | Feb 21 2009, 10:20 AM Post #6 |
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Even though Larry, Moe, and Curly (Himan, Nifong, and Gottlieb) did not explicitly say to Meehan "we need something to indict Evans," I fully believe that things were said from which Meehan deduced who they were after with the fingernail testing. For example, I am sure Gottlieb mentioned who lived at the house where the fingernails were found. IMHO in a sense, I believe that Meehan was coached too, and Meehan all too gladly obliged them. Gottlieb set his sights on Evans, because he was 100% sure that he was at the party and he assumed he could contrive some circumstantial evidence. e.g., DNA on the fingernails. I remember the first time that someone here pointed out this passage from Gottlieb's "homegrown notes." This absolutely was a frame. http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/2007/07/gottleibs-homegrown-notes-aka-duffs.html 0114 I returned to 610 N. Buchanan. Inv. Carnevale was still holding the scene as CSI processed it. 1 spoke to CSI Ashby and Inv. Carnevale and asked what type evidence had located to this point. In addition, I walked around the residence to see if there were any other clues present that could link the incident reported to this residence. I noticed in the rear center bedroom, a picture hanging on the wall. It has one of the residents in the photograph at what appears to be a party (unrelated to this incident) drinking alcohol. The interesting thing about the photograph is how the subject has red cheeks most likely due to the alcohol consumption. The cheeks are consistent with the subject who the victim alleged attacked her. The scene was secured when ID completed the processing. Edited by MikeZPU, Feb 21 2009, 10:22 AM.
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| Lodge Pro 345 | Feb 21 2009, 10:45 AM Post #7 |
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. Yes, the fingernails were suspicious from day one. The search warrant doesn't account for the correct number of fingernails and Gottlieb's team was in that place - and then Gottlieb went back there himself later. Without a search warrant showing when and where the nails were collected and handled - there are obvious questions about the chain of custody. There a couple areas where one may think Gottlieb was tilting things towards Dave Evans. |
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| Baldo | Feb 21 2009, 11:13 AM Post #8 |
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Regarding the 4 April Lineup 668 G Prior to the procedure, Mangum was provided photographs from the party to study so that she would be able to identify as her attackers three individuals the police could prove (through the pictures) were, in fact, present at the party. Ekstrand Lawsuit The Duke Lacrosse Frame/Hoax Edited by Baldo, Feb 21 2009, 11:14 AM.
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| jewelcove | Feb 21 2009, 11:25 AM Post #9 |
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Can there be a more tainted proceedure!?! Is that how she was able to say "that guy was in the ________room"? Or "that guy was wearing ______ "? It seemed odd especially after her memory fiasco on the 2 previous photo lineups. I wonder who leaked that CGM was given access to the photos. |
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| Baldo | Feb 21 2009, 11:39 AM Post #10 |
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I imagine There are some honest public servants in Durham and employees of Duke. There is anecdotal evidence that some PD members knew what was happening and didn't like it, but when the City Manager, Mayor, City Council, Chief, Deputy Chief, and Senior Commanders along with the DA and Judge were all lined up on the other side a Line Cop knows the odds. To the Depositions! |
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| chatham | Feb 21 2009, 03:35 PM Post #11 |
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There is more than anecdotal evidence. It is my understanding that some actually talked with officials about what wrongs were going on. |
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| abb | Feb 21 2009, 03:48 PM Post #12 |
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But in the end, those cops became "Good Germans" and did what they were told. Otherwise, the USDOJ would just about now be making final arguments at CowBell, Baker and others trials.
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| Bill Anderson | Feb 21 2009, 07:18 PM Post #13 |
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From what I understand, one reason that Himan was pushed out of the DPD was that he testified against Nifong at the bar hearings and in his deposition. As you already know, Gottlieb continued to insist there was a rape. Now, I still think both Himan and Gottlieb should go to jail. Himan is a criminal because he lied to grand juries, conspired to hide evidence, committed obstruction of justice, and for participating in a conspiracy to deny individuals of their civil rights. Gottlieb's record of lies speaks for itself. The same goes for Clayton, Baker, Chalmers, and Bill Bell. None of them have clean hands, and if there were any justice in this country, those men would be spending time in the crowbar motel.
Edited by Bill Anderson, Feb 21 2009, 07:19 PM.
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| MikeZPU | Feb 22 2009, 12:35 AM Post #14 |
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I had not heard that before about Himan -- the DPD retaliated against Himan for testifying against Nifong, despite the fact that Nifong had Linwood Wilson conduct an investigation of one of their own, Officer Shelton, in an attempt to discredit him because he knew that Mangum was lying about being raped? In addition, the DPD embraced Mangum and her transparently false case even though she had nearly run down one of their own officers two years earlier in a cab she stole? The DPD so embraced Mangum that even when Nifong recused himself, the DPD made a strong public statement that they would continue pressing the case with the evidence that they had collected. The DPD is an absolutely corrupt and screwed up organization. But besides being corrupt, I believe that another reason the DPD made that strong public statement about continuing to press the case after Nifong's recusal is that they were stung by criticism that they let Nifong take over the case and call the shots relative to the "investigation." So, they didn't give a damn that they were prosecuting innocent people, they didn't give a damn that they were wrecking the lives of many including the families, they didn't give a damn that the DNA evidence clearly indicated there was no rape ... NO, they wanted to continue the case to falsely claim that they were running their own investigation independent of Nifong. Gosh, I hope and pray that the DPD is held liable for their criminal actions in this case, for their absolute callousness, and even for their stupidity as well. Edited by MikeZPU, Feb 22 2009, 12:53 AM.
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| Bill Anderson | Feb 22 2009, 07:48 AM Post #15 |
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One reason that this case could go as far as it did was the fact that the DPD sees itself as invulnerable. Durham is a very insular city, and its demographic and political makeup enables it to get by without the kind of scrutiny that other places would receive. Second, prosecutors and police across the country are able to get away literally with murder and not have to pay a price for it. For example, the other day I posted the Radley Balko piece on "forensics" in Mississippi in which a long-time "expert" witness was seen on video secretly planting bite marks on the body of a victim, and then testifying in court that the bite marks were "proof" of the suspect's guilt, and the guy then was sent to death row. This kind of criminal activity goes on when people know they will not be held accountable for their crimes. Now, keep in mind that in Durham, they did not even see any reason to "plant" evidence. In Mississippi, a jury at least must be fooled; in Durham, a jury does not even have to see evidence to convict, and we know that is what would have happened had the LAX case gone to trial in Durham. (At very least, there would have been a hung jury, which would have been almost as devastating, and don't kid yourselves about that. The NAACP would have done what the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission did in the trial of Byron de la Beckwith, except the jury tampering in the LAX case would have been a situation in which the NAACP would have put pressure on individual jurors to vote guilty no matter what the evidence presented would have been.) Look at the way that people in Durham have lined up behind the police and city officials and even Nifong in the civil suits. The NAACP's own people have provided the financial and legal backing for Crystal in her "book," and we see people there still insisting that "something terrible happened." No, there is no way that the DPD will have to answer for its crimes. The present administration, if one sees the signals sent by Eric Holder's recent racist outburst, has sent a clear message to everyone else that the Department of (In)Justice is going to be settling old racial scores, and in Durham, the LAX case was all about score settling.
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7:36 PM Jul 10