Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Plaintiffs’ Response to Nifong’s Motion to Dismiss
Topic Started: Jan 31 2009, 12:32 AM (8,066 Views)
wayne fontes
Member Avatar

Michael
Feb 3 2009, 12:20 PM
FOLLOW THE MONEY................Bill Bell had the most reasons to "make it happen" I'm sure somewhere down deep we will find he has a vested interest in the construction on Central Campus...He was one of the striking points that forced Duke to add to their "contribution" to the fine arts center and a lot of other projects , yes I said projects and nothing more, in Durm....Spend that money Bill, as long at it comes off the "Plantation"...Isn't that how city-university relations are supposed to work......FOLLOW THE MONEY............
Follow what money where? For the city of Durham to lean on the deepest pockets in town to cough up money seems like business as usual to me and doesn't require a conspiracy.

If Durham was shaking down Duke I can't recall any action by Duke that indicated they weren't in favor of the Lax case going to trial. All of the actions they took gave either direct or indirect support to Nifong. The Ferpa violation, leaning on their own officers to amend reports form the night in question, suppressing the voter registration drive aimed at electing an alternative to Nifong; yadda, yadda, etc,etc.

The city also never took any steps to stop the case. Even after Nifong was forced to exit the city took no action to halt the case. The State of NC finally dropped the charges, not Durham.


Duke was motivated to not in any way seem un-PC. For Durham's elected politicians it was good politics to push a prosecution against privileged white athletes from Duke.

For the FOLLOW THE MONEY theory to have any credibility you have to make the case that some exchange was made.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pjr

I think people who are expecting that depositions are going to peel back the cover of a big frame that was in existence from the start are going to be severely disappointed by the outcome. I doubt that, once the case is winnowed down and the depositions are taken, the plaintiff lawyers will spend much time on the March 14-20 part of the timeline when it comes to police outrages.

Beginning with Addison's activities, there is a steady drumbeat of nefarious activities that is going to piss off any jury: the March 29 meetings, the 4/4 ID session, the conspiracy to withhold the DNASI results, the Grand Jury appearances, the treatment of Elmofasta, Gottleib's compilation of phony notes... The jury cash register will be going ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching each time the obvious act of police malice is presented.

No such thing will occur for what the police did for those first six or so days. There's no consistent evidence to show that there was any complicated PD or citywide scheme to frame from the get-go. In fact, there is a lot of mitigating evidence to the contrary; and that it was a adhoc situation fueled by misinformation from DUMC, rather than anything from city hall.

There might be some developments in the early stage that aggravate a jury. But it likely will be revelations of what happened at DUMC inside the SANE unit, and not went on inside DPD in the first week. There is still a lot of mystery to be answered for. (Besides the details of the negligence involved with hiring, shift staffing, personnel bias, and the like, there is potential for activity which will annoy any jury. If, for example, it turns out that any of the staff pushed or lobbied the cops directy, or indirectly through community groups/members, there will be hell and ka-ching for Duke to pay.)

Gottleib et al are going to take it in the neck if immunity issues are successfully bypassed. But it will be for the big things they actually did, and not for what people suspect they did, or for what others might have done in the same position. The plaintiffs aren't going to squander their efforts on coulda/shoulda claims or speculation approaching UFOlogy. Besides being fruitless and argumentative, it only has potential to lose the jury.
Edited by pjr, Feb 3 2009, 02:47 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
abb
Member Avatar

My prediction is once discovery starts and we find out who knew what and when they knew it, the whole shebang is over. The trustees will throw Steele, Nifong and other Allen Building strap-hangars under the bus and tell the Feds they can have them and good riddance.

Further, the Power Structure will re-orient itself, pick new leadership and offer up several people to sacrifice - Nifong, Bell, Chalmers, Cline and maybe a judge or two and call it good.

The Feds WILL act. They have no choice.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sceptical

abb
Feb 3 2009, 03:15 PM
My prediction is once discovery starts and we find out who knew what and when they knew it, the whole shebang is over. The trustees will throw Steele, Nifong and other Allen Building strap-hangars under the bus and tell the Feds they can have them and good riddance.

Further, the Power Structure will re-orient itself, pick new leadership and offer up several people to sacrifice - Nifong, Bell, Chalmers, Cline and maybe a judge or two and call it good.

The Feds WILL act. They have no choice.
I wish abb's predictions come to pass, but I doubt them.

Duke's Trustees have a good idea as to Duke's role-- otherwise they would not have approved the multi-million dollar settlement. Steel's term will be over and he will go as scheduled, but Brodhead and supporting cast will remain.

The Durham power structure is Democratic and strongly supported Obama. Do you really think Eric Holder will approve DOJ action in the case when Bush's DOJ would not? Wishful thinking. The Feds do have a choice to do nothing.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
abb
Member Avatar

sceptical
Feb 3 2009, 03:59 PM
abb
Feb 3 2009, 03:15 PM
My prediction is once discovery starts and we find out who knew what and when they knew it, the whole shebang is over. The trustees will throw Steele, Nifong and other Allen Building strap-hangars under the bus and tell the Feds they can have them and good riddance.

Further, the Power Structure will re-orient itself, pick new leadership and offer up several people to sacrifice - Nifong, Bell, Chalmers, Cline and maybe a judge or two and call it good.

The Feds WILL act. They have no choice.
I wish abb's predictions come to pass, but I doubt them.

Duke's Trustees have a good idea as to Duke's role-- otherwise they would not have approved the multi-million dollar settlement. Steel's term will be over and he will go as scheduled, but Brodhead and supporting cast will remain.

The Durham power structure is Democratic and strongly supported Obama. Do you really think Eric Holder will approve DOJ action in the case when Bush's DOJ would not? Wishful thinking. The Feds do have a choice to do nothing.
My prediction stands. I'll be here posting about it either way.
:dsk:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
retiredLEO
Member Avatar

Bill Anderson
Jan 31 2009, 10:32 PM
I need to let all Blog Hooligans know that the newspaper in Pittsburgh refused to run an investigative piece on the hiring of Ben Himan. It is time personally to go to war with this guy, and with the town that hired this rogue cop. I have held back, but no longer. I hate lying cops; they make the good cops look bad, and there are lots of good cops in this country who should not have to work with scum like Mark Gottlieb and others like him.

:bill:
So where do we send our complaints? Does the Pittsburgh area only have one newspaper and no other news outlets that report on the local police departments and their officers?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Baldo
Member Avatar

I don't think the majority of Duke Trustees have a clue. Why would we expect Dick & Bob to say, "Oh yea, we knew they were innocent, but we had to get them off the cover for our benefit." They probably rightfully stay as far away from this as possible. I would imagine at best it was left to the executive committee.

The plaintiffs aren't going to squander their efforts on coulda/shoulda claims or speculation approaching UFOlogy. Besides being fruitless and argumentative, it only has potential to lose the jury.

There is so much documentation in this case from the NC AG investigation, the State Bar hearing files, the court documents, the Defense Files including private investigators report, and we have seen only a portion released. The Interim DA, Judge Hardin, on his last day said he wanted a criminal investigation into this case and requested the US Attorney to do so. It is my understanding the NC SPs also pushed for a DOJ criminal investigation. However the beaten down Republican DOJ refused to enter this case. It is not too often a DA & SP request for a criminal invetsigation by the Feds lands on deaf ears.

No one needs UFOlogy to prove this case. There is a clear record that documents the actions of Nifong, Gottlieb, Addison, Himan, Levicy, Linwood, and the rest of Durham's & Duke defendants.

Our efforts are to understand the origins of this Frame/Hoax starts with Crystal at Durham Access. That is all we can trace this back to, and all we have ever seriously pursued on this forum.

As Butch Williams so eloquently stated,

"Where are all these white guys raising hell?" asked an incredulous James D. "Butch" Williams, who represents a lacrosse captain who lived at the house and voluntarily submitted to a DNA test shortly after one of two exotic dancers hired to entertain at the party said she was raped, sodomized and beaten by three white men there. "When the people start digging the least little bit, they're gong to find out things don't make sense."

...Williams questioned the strength of the evidence. He implied Thursday that the 911 calls might have been a scam and that the entire incident was staged.

In her call reporting the racial slur, the unidentified woman offered different versions of the incident. She variously said she had driven by the house, had walked by the house and was sitting in front of the house at the time she was talking to the 911 dispatcher. She initially said one male near the Duke wall hurled the racial epithet, and later said a group of people came out of 610 N. Buchanan yelling at her and her friend. The wall and the house are on opposite sides of a dimly lit street.

"There are a number of discrepancies that point toward a contrived situation -- maybe," said Williams.

The attorney said he didn't know why anyone might perpetrate such a potential hoax.

"I can't speak to speculation," he added. "But once you tell one lie, you've got to tell another and another and another. You're caught up in a web of lies."
March 31 Herald Sun

Those words probably explain the Frame/Hoax as best one can.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chatham
Member Avatar

Baldo
Feb 3 2009, 05:30 PM

The attorney said he didn't know why anyone might perpetrate such a potential hoax.

"I can't speak to speculation," he added. "But once you tell one lie, you've got to tell another and another and another. You're caught up in a web of lies." [/i] March 31 Herald Sun

Those words probably explain the Frame/Hoax as best one can.


And this is exactly what nifong said when asked what evidence there was to indict one of the players, by himan I believe. If you believe crystal about one part of the story you have to believe the other part of the story. Nifong must have been reading the hurled scum.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bill Anderson
Member Avatar

retiredLEO
Feb 3 2009, 04:15 PM
Bill Anderson
Jan 31 2009, 10:32 PM
I need to let all Blog Hooligans know that the newspaper in Pittsburgh refused to run an investigative piece on the hiring of Ben Himan. It is time personally to go to war with this guy, and with the town that hired this rogue cop. I have held back, but no longer. I hate lying cops; they make the good cops look bad, and there are lots of good cops in this country who should not have to work with scum like Mark Gottlieb and others like him.

:bill:
So where do we send our complaints? Does the Pittsburgh area only have one newspaper and no other news outlets that report on the local police departments and their officers?
Here is the website for Mt. Lebanon, Pennsylvania:

http://www.mtlebanon.org/

I have talked to them before. They have a dirty cop on their force, a guy who lied to a grand jury, who actively participated in a frame, and who intimidated a key witness, Moez Elmostafa.

Steve Feller is the city manager, and his number is 412-343-3404. (His secretary is a very nice person, so please do not be nasty with her. I am serious, folks. She is a nice person and does not deserve any harassment.)

:bill:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sdsgo

chatham
Feb 3 2009, 05:43 PM
Baldo
Feb 3 2009, 05:30 PM

The attorney said he didn't know why anyone might perpetrate such a potential hoax.

"I can't speak to speculation," he added. "But once you tell one lie, you've got to tell another and another and another. You're caught up in a web of lies." [/i] March 31 Herald Sun

Those words probably explain the Frame/Hoax as best one can.


And this is exactly what nifong said when asked what evidence there was to indict one of the players, by himan I believe. If you believe crystal about one part of the story you have to believe the other part of the story. Nifong must have been reading the hurled scum.
Strangely, Nifong’s statement was correct. Put it this way:

If you believe Crystal’s identification of Finnerty, then you must believe her identification of Seligmann too, because if you can’t trust Crystal’s identification of Seligmann, then you can’t indict Finnerty either. For to indict Finnerty and not Seligmann, you must be able to indict Finnerty without her identification.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Baldo
Member Avatar

Reminds me of Johnnie Cochran

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit"

sophism is a confusing or illogical argument used for deceiving someone.

Of course if the glove got wet and shrunk or if someone was shown pictures before a line-up and it doesn't include fillers the basic premise doesn't work.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sdsgo

I prefer to think about the statement as Ben Himan’s admission that he indicted Finnerty and Seligmann without probable cause. His compulsion to find evidence that would place Reade at the party meant that he did not have faith in Crystal’s creditability or reliability. (Let me see – I think I posted on that very issue back in June 2006 on CTV.)

:clean:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MikeZPU

sdsgo
Feb 3 2009, 09:44 PM
I prefer to think about the statement as Ben Himan’s admission that he indicted Finnerty and Seligmann without probable cause. His compulsion to find evidence that would place Reade at the party meant that he did not have faith in Crystal’s creditability or reliability. (Let me see – I think I posted on that very issue back in June 2006 on CTV.)

:clean:
Absolutely! Himan & Gottlieb both knew Mangum was totally not credible;
they also had a plethora of indications that she was quite impaired that night too.

As a result, it was plainly obvious that H&G were VERY worried that she would pick
someone who was not at the party at the time of the "alleged rape" or, worst than that,
who was out of town that night! Hence, their whole charade of an investigation was
primarily focussed on finding out who was at the party, from sources other than Mangum's
lying mouth.

Heck, even after being coached by Gottlieb, she still could not even pick the
right number of attackers.

This was a frame from at least as early as the minute Gottlieb got a hold of the case.
Edited by MikeZPU, Feb 3 2009, 10:24 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JSwift
Member Avatar

pjr
Feb 3 2009, 08:31 AM
The argument that the existence of a later frame proves an earlier frame is a logical non-starter; that later bad faith necessarily taints earlier practical police actions, ditto.

I believe that this case was one that morphed as things came up. And that the later actions were so outrageous that, if the suits are allowed to proceed, will result in staggering amounts.
I continue to agree with pjr. Most posters seem to misunderstand the conclusion pjr and I have reached. We are not arguing that Nifong, the DPD and others did not attempt a deliberate frame.

I believe that a deliberate frame started sometime after Nifong received the negative DNA results on March 28. The design of the April 4 identification procedure is consistent with this view. The decision to deliberately frame three players for a crime the conspirators knew had never occurred became irreversible when Nifong filed the indictments after the NCCU forum on April 11.

A deliberate frame by this time is not at issue. There is no other reasonable explanation.

The evidence of a later frame and cover-up, however, is not proof that the frame was underway earlier. The flaws in the non-investigation after about March 28 (including the design of the identification lottery) prove nothing about earlier intentions.

I have seen insufficient evidence that a single grand scheme was in place at the outset. I continue to believe that different participants had different motivations and that they joined the frame and/or cover-up at different times.

I believe that Gottlieb, with the probable support of his superiors (within the DPD and perhaps in City Hall), was conducting a “fishing expedition” when he took over the case on March 15. During the first week, the investigation was limited to interviews with Levicy, Crystal and Kim and the execution of the search warrant. The player interviews and DNA (and the NTO after the interviews were canceled) were the focus of their efforts.

Gottlieb wanted to see what “evidence” he could drum up. Only then would he (and his superiors) decide what charges, if any, to pursue.

I believe they would have dropped the case at the outset (or pursued only minor charges) if they knew then what they know now.

They knew quite early that they had no case (witness with no credibility; no reliable descriptions or identifications; no consistent allegation; no injuries; no corroborating evidence except Levicy’s unsupported statements). They did not, however, know how much exculpatory evidence they would have to overcome, including:

•No player interviews and ability to twist statements
•No DNA matches with any players
•DNA matches to several unidentified males
•Alibi evidence
•Other electronic evidence (cell phone records, pictures, etc.)

Most importantly, they enormously underestimated how strongly the defendants would fight back and how effective good lawyers can be. The DPD learned that a frame is far more successful when the defendant has no resources and there is no public scrutiny.

pjr is correct; the early activities will not be the focus of discovery. There are far more egregious actions beginning with Addison’s inflammatory statements on March 24.

I believe that posters make three critical mistakes.

First, posters tend to imply that all participants had the same objectives. Participants had different motivations for joining the frame. They had different amounts of information and enlisted in the frame and/or cover-up at different times. They are not a monolithic group and we should not treat them as such.

Second, posters exaggerate Nifong’s importance. I do not believe that Nifong was the primary driver of the frame. He was merely one of many participants—albeit someone in the DA’s office was required to move the case forward. I don’t believe that Durham powers had any interest in Nifong or his election. He was merely a resource to be used and a convenient scapegoat to be blamed if things went wrong (which explains the decision to give Nifong responsibility for the DPD investigation).

Third, posters underestimate the importance of the N&O’s interview with Crystal. This interview, published on March 25, transformed the case into a racially-motivated attack.

This interview changed the case. Once the case had gained this racial dimension, any decision to drop it risked severe political fallout (I am not talking about Nifong here). All potential opposition in Durham and at Duke had effectively been neutralized. A frame would face little resistance from local leaders.

I believe that the decision to proceed with a frame was made sometime after this article was published.

I continue to believe that this interview is critical in understanding the origin of the frame and raise the following questions:

•Who tipped off Samiha Khanna?
•Was the tipster part of the initial “investigation” team or someone not previously involved (i.e., someone unaware that the case was a fraud)?
•What was the tipster’s motivation? Did they intend to force the case to move forward, apply pressure on the DPD to solve the case or simply lose control?
•Did the tipster intend to transform the case into a racial attack?
•What were the ground rules for questions?
•Did Crystal stay on script?
•When was Khanna tipped off?
•Was Nifong given responsibility for the investigation (and set up as the scapegoat) before Khanna was tipped off?
•How did the potbangers react so quickly? Were they alerted prior to publication?



Edited by JSwift, Feb 3 2009, 10:30 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
MikeZPU

JSwift: You make a lot of excellent points, and I agree with all of your
informational content. And, for sure, there were many who facilitated
and promoted the case for their own personal reasons.

But I think you are overlooking how angry Gottlieb was for getting
reassigned based on complaints from Duke students. I firmly
believe he was looking for an opportunity to get back at them.

Gottlieb was doing anything he could do make the LAX players
look evil to keep the case going. I firmly believe that he exploited
the allegation of a racial slur and the 911 call to create a racial
dimension to the case, to ignite a fire, to pour gasoline on a fire.

Just as you asked, how did the N&O interview with Crystal come about?
A rape victim's name is not released. The N&O had to go through the DPD (i.e., Gottlieb)
to get to her. I believe that there was a planned purpose to that interview.

I believe that Gottlieb dropped bombs anywhere and everywhere in those early days
to a whole host of very receptive ears.


Edited by MikeZPU, Feb 3 2009, 10:56 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · DUKE LACROSSE - Liestoppers · Next Topic »
Add Reply