| How do you like it now? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 25 2009, 04:58 PM (360 Views) | |
| Perfect_Plex | Jun 25 2009, 04:58 PM Post #1 |
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Was just curious if anyone is still playing LOW now that it's been several months. For me, my sense of the game has oscilliated quite a bit (I guess this has been evident in my various posts), during the build-up and after having purchased the game. My first impression really was that despite all the short-cuts, misguided 'arcade-like' tautology, and glaring omissions, that by some miracle THQ had managed to put out a pretty damn decent product. My first match as Jake Vs. the Undertaker/Bearer was great. The rematch was even better. I think part of this was that I simply hadn't mastered the changes from SvR (it hadn't yet become second nature) in combination with Taker's huge health regenerations made for something pleasantly (and appropriately, given my opponent) challenging. When I finally put him away with a DDT it felt like an accomplishment. And the match was even pretty good, with all the back-and-forth swings and Bearer's interferrence stacking the deck. Since then, after completing Wrestlemania Tour, I feel like I'm always struggling to recapture the magic of those first matches. I've upped the difficulty and optimized the settings for longer matches, but the experience often falls flat. Even the settings I can never seem to get balanced out just right. For example, depending on the QTE difficulty setting, it can become nearly impossible for me to pull-off a whole finishing chain QTE, and yet I'll still have largely no problem reversing the AI's at some point in the chain. To adjust the setting any further would mean that I could never hit my own finisher, so... Tag matches are better than they ever were in SvR (at least pre-'09) and generally seem to be epic and fun, but the Doomsday Devices all over the place feel a little weird and it can be too much of a chore to pull off individual chain finishers. And even mapping them out as Lvl 3 grapples doesn't always solve this problem. Yeah, I can still easily hit Hogan's leg or Warrior's splash as a ground grapple, but my opponent will always get up immediately after the move, and the 3-Meter doesn't apply to ground moves anyway, so I can hit them right at the beginning of the match. Triple-Threat matches can be fun and challenging but usually seem to result with a somewhat arbitrary victor and a lame finish. It's simply too easy to be cheap in these matches (I guess that's kind of the point, but...) as there is always someone wide open to attack in a three-man situation. The end result is that you usually end up with all three men (or at least your opponents) becoming depleted around the same time with the victory going to whoever happens to get the first opportunistic cover late in the match (i.e., a lame finish). The fact of the matter is that the lame AI and the wrestlers getting up too fast almost kills this mode. The whole drama of a well-staged Triple-Threat match is that there's usually one opponent out of the mix as the match progresses, and that guy then has to fight his way back into the match or break a cover just in time. More drama is supplied by how the wrestlers ally with each other (or don't). Both the wrestlers getting up too fast and the lame AI directly undermine those two aspects. And the chain finishers, again, just don't jive with this at all. A chain sequence only gives them more time to get up and I find it difficult to win with those finishers unless they go right into a pinning combination (a la Perfect Plex, Boss Man Slam...etc...). Wash. Rinse. Repeat. You'll just rarely be pleasantly surprised in one of these matches in 1-player mode. The ladder match seems like a bust to me in the final analysis. Just way too limited and easy to win. Not enough resistance or authenticity no matter how you slice it. Very crude implementation of the ladder all around. Smackdown Shut Your Mouth was better than this, and I think that came out in 2001. The Rumble might be better than it's ever been and yet the improvements are largely cosmetic. The overall experience isn't enhanced all that much. It can be fun to start as number 1 and try and go the distance by using the energy boosting taunt (meaning you have to be an active fighting participant to build the required momentum), but there really just isn't much of a GAME here. There's not much strategy or elimination variety beyond mashing buttons, the occasional QTE, and maybe the occasional energy boost or 'finishing push.' SvR's has been nothing to write home about either, but I still feel like I had more fun with this on my old Sega Genesis! LOW does capture the chaos of a real Rumble match much better than anything before it, and just seeing all 30 of those old-school faces is almost majestic in of itself, but it still feels like it's missing too much to be anything worth writing home about... The CAL mode is definitely awesome, but I haven't delved into this too much mostly because I was waiting for possible DLC roster additions before deciding who to make (I made a few that were obviously not going to be DLC in a million years). But what about that? The game has been out for months, and SvR09 gets the Legends-themed DLC. I'd say things are starting to look down for LOW's DLC prospects. Especially if it's all pre-loaded on the disc anyway ... would they really wait this long to pull the trigger? Even some alternate attires would be great. Guys like Warrior, Jake, and Mr. Perfect are just begging for more attires. We finally get the UW, some of his moves are pretty damn good, and yet there you are stuck with only his WM VI attire (meanwhile we get lame LOD alternate attires and the Sarge and Shiek wear their Iraqi garb during the matches...doh!) Hopefully we'll still get something before the summer's out. So the bottom line, in the final analysis, is that LOW just doesn't hold my interest Wrestling videogames, as has often been noted in the past, often seem wracked by the central paradox that you're trying to make a game (a pure competition) out of something that is essentially a drama -- a spectacle. Various past games have grappled with this and some have found ways of balancing out this tension with very satisfying--though far from exemplary--results. Ultimately LOW just isn't very good in either sense. Its limitations, in most cases, simply prevent you from putting on the match you'd like to put on (regardless of how well the AI or human opponent does in frustrating those aims), and as a game or competition, there really isn't that much to commend it either. There's just not enough skill or strategy involved, though the manager interactions and to some extent the QTEs do at least add some spice over previous games. Still, those truly great and memorable matches seem few and very far between... and almost ... flukish!? For example, I once played as Yoko against Michael Hayes in what was supposed to be a squash match (and quite literally too:) And for some reason Hayes just wouldn't go down for the longest time, and I even shanked the Fuji salt-throwing bit with the salt winding up in my own eyes. I eventually got the win, but this ironically turned out to be maybe the most satisfying match I've had with it. But typically, without someone else to play against, it's all too perfunctory. And all my favorite matches seem to involve managers, but of course they are only available in one match mode.So again, some of LOWs ideas could prove quite worthy taken to logical and finely-wrought conclusions. But yeah, I have to agree with those who say it was just too rushed to pass muster in the end, though I did have a glimmer of hope in the earliest stages. As a kid I was just too enraptured with the era largely represented by the game not to have a lot of fun with it for a little while, it's just a shame it wasn't meant to last. I certainly don't think it's as bad as many people make it out to be and it IS one of my favorite wrestling games in recent years (but only when compared to a largely stagnant SvR series and mainly just because of the roster). I know bashing QTEs and "mini-games" is kind of the stock, cool position to take in some quarters, but I don't even think these things, while lame in some games, are all that bad in a wrestling game. Even if they just let them in for off-the-ropes irish whipping segments or as "mini-games" in some of gimmick matches, that seems like a fine way to use them. Granted, there may be much better, more creative ways to build an immersive game engine, sure, but the main problem with these elements as relates to LOW is that they're just so threadbare in the execution. These elements are just kind of ... there. They add a little spice and challenge, but they're not really put in the service of anything greater (making the wrestlers more authentic, making the gimmick matches more complex and involved, etc...). Anyway, most of this stuff has been well-documented by now one way or another, but this is ultimately the lasting impression that was made as far as I go. At any rate, it's been a lot of fun discussing the game with yall, and I look forward to the petition going out. Even if the bastards don't even read the thing. It is, to be sure, a highly idealistic effort. But ideals, even if unachievable, also happen to be what makes life worth living, even if we're only talking about a 'dumb videogame' in this case.
Edited by Perfect_Plex, Jun 25 2009, 10:53 PM.
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| garethac81 | Jun 30 2009, 09:32 AM Post #2 |
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Wow...great post, Plex! As ever, you've made several well-considered and insightful observations. Do I still play LOWM? Yes, absolutely. I've been taking my time with it, rewarding myself with a new CAL every now and again (I still have 3 or 4 spots left on the CAL roster, but my User Playlist seemingly won't let me add any more creations without the entrance music going haywire). I also find myself continuing to finetune the movesets (making sure no one has too many "Blood" moves, balancing authenticity with availability to use as many in-game moves as possible, choosing rear ground attacks for ground chain sequences that put an opponent on his belly, etc.), and the entrances (searching for just the right mannerisms for each wrestler, as well as adding flourishes like full screen titantrons and fireworks when appropriate, have been enjoyable tasks for me). As for the gameplay, I am continuing to improve my ability to do what I want, when I want to do it. Some of the trickier spots, like hitting a diving attack before your opponent runs away (which really irritates me...when does that ever happen in reality?), or triggering a particular environmental hotspot (without accidentally triggering another one instead) are hard to master, but it is satisfying to notice that I'm getting better. Overcoming challenges like these mean that, which each passing month, my ability to tell a story with each match has also improved. I am now quite proficient at facing a big man and keeping him on his feet until executing a classic body slam at the end of the match, or playing a cowardly heel who keeps fleeing the ring and looking to use chairs, hotspots and his manager to tip the scales. If I'm Flair, I like to get beaten down then suddenly rebound with a low blow. If I'm Warrior, rushing an opponent with a blizzard of fast attacks (no crappy Fists of Fury, though!) is great fun. If I'm Honky Tonk Man, getting pounded from corner to corner then winning with a sneaky rollup while Jimmy Hart decoys is also a treat. Most of the roster have their own story to tell, and learning how to tell each one in the game - and tell it a little better each time - keeps me coming back for more. For me - and this may surprise some of you - I always play on Easy. I find it slows the matches to a more realistic pace, and gives me the highest degree of control over each match. When I get beaten down, it is because I have decided that it is dramatically appropriate, rather than an attack forced on me by fiercely competitive AI. Then, when I decide it's time to rally back, I can string an aesthetically pleasing rally together without being interrupted with a cheap counter. During a chain sequence, once again I can decide who wins or loses each prompt based on serving the drama of the match, rather than how quick my fingers are. This works for me because I am always happy to let matches and results swing either way - creating an exciting match, rather than winning, is my MO. This has definitely allowed me to get a lot more out of the game than I feel I would have by trying to "beat" it on the highest difficulty. My enjoyment of the game has steadily increased, rather than declined. Regarding the negatives, they certainly still irritate me, but now that a couple of months have passed since the nasty shock of discovering them for the first time, I have learned to deal with them. That doesn't mean my opinion of the game has improved, mind you - I've only improved my ability to work around its flaws. I think LOWM is a pretty good game, weighed down by several fundamental flaws and omissions. I enjoy playing it - but I have never, and will never enjoy playing it to the extent that I stop pinning my hopes on a sequel to fix everything it got wrong. If LOWM was a GREAT game, I wouldn't even be thinking about a sequel at this stage - I'd be too busy having too much fun. I may have got used to no weight detection, quick pop-ups and broken finishers, but I will still be wishing those flaws away from now until LOWM2. Now, if the online wrestling community would just show a little more interest in our project, we can hopefully do more than just wish. |
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| Perfect_Plex | Jul 2 2009, 02:51 PM Post #3 |
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Hey Gareth, interesting reply Glad you are still enjoying it, and I think our senses of the game probably aren't all that divergent though your play style does seem to focus more on the spectacle (or aesthetic, as you said) end of things rather than on the competitive aspect. I guess for me the whole allure of a wrestling game is trying to make an aesthically pleasing/dramatic match within the closure of an actual contest or...game, in the purest sense of the word I suppose. If I set the game to easy, if I have too much control, it won't feel like there's enough of a closure, and there's a part of me that ends up feeling like maybe I should just dig my old action figures out of the closet because at least there wouldn't be load times and the theme music playing in my head will never skip or fail to load properly:) Though I certainly do not mean to belittle your enjoyment with that remark. I totally see the appeal in such an approach and have played wrestling games in such a way in the past. It's just that, I guess after a number of years of playing these games, the real lasting thrill for me at this point comes from doing something that would be considered cool in a "real" wrestling match in spite of that closure, in spite of it being in the context of a game or contest. The game really does have to bite back to a certain extent. The better the AI and the more the match changes 'as a situation' the better the game will be in both key dimensions. This is part of why I've grown tired with Smackdown/vR. Those games tend to let you do so much crazy stuff that you really do have to play them a long while to see every little nook and cranny. And that's cool. But oftentimes, the matches just never change or evolve much as a situation--everything feels just too "all-out." The body-specific damage helps to mitigate this, and yet it still feels a bit stilted and arbitrary in the execution (haven't played 09, but the others have seemed far from perfect on this). Being able to "store" a finisher really doesn't help either, and it makes me laugh that THQ considers that series a "simulation" when they employ elements such as this. All that means it that once I hit a certain threshold (which in any well-played and suitably epic match will inevitably be reached by all the competitors sooner or later) I can nail that finisher at any time I damn well please (barring reversals) and that's that. There's just no meaning, no dramatic weight, no catharsis in it. On the flip side, the momentum-based AKI games do provide that thrill of requiring you to reach a certain peak of performance, and then giving you a limited time to hit the finisher. It provides a constant feedback loop which plays into your sense of how you want to play out the match all the way through. Things are always changing, redemption is possible. The AKI games ooze something like catharsis at every turn. It really is a different ballgame from one moment to the next. I think the 3-Meter is a viable alternative to this. When I first caught wind of it I was so stoked. And yet, of course, they could have done SO much more with it, especially in the gimmick matches. It's just kind of blowing you a kiss instead of planting one on you. And now it's 2009, and dammit, I would really just like a wrestling game that plants one on me already. I think LOW could stand to borrow a bit from SvR, but ultimately it could represent a more progressive vision for the wrestling games of the future. But that's what so many people don't get. People are so focused on content or FEATURES these days and have so little regard for form. They want the all-you-can eat buffet counter, when what we need is a carefully composed meal where each course compliments the others perfectly. Sure, mini-games, when used poorly can suck, but the kick-out "mini-game," for example, is good because it changes the match as a situation while providing the player with a chance (no matter how slim) to always break a pin and live to fight a while longer. It serves LOW as a game, and it's also a cool dramatic event in of itself approximating the emotion of watching a badly beaten wrestler make that 'desperation kick-out' late in a match when he very well could have gone down. But making this distinction requires a degree of sophistication that gets left out of reductionist debates revolving around sweeping claims about content. And yes, LOW misses the boat a bit with a lot of those devilish details (attires, etc...) and those are important, but the real meat of the game--the human psychology of the thing--was also overlooked a bit too much. And that's what gets lost in the shuffle with all this PR bullshit about simulation vs. arcade and all the rest. Come on THQ--GROW UP! And arguments about just appreciating what you've been given (you little 12-year-old punk) also miss out on a lot of important insight in a penchant for obliterating history. History matters. Yes, if LOW was the first wrestling game I'd ever played it very well may have lasted for years without growing at all stale. But the fact of the matter is, I've played a hell of a lot of wrestling games at this point. As a natural consequence I do expect and require a higher standard to remain engaged with something over a longer period of time. Context is important. Given the constraints and standards of 1991 game design (and the arcade format's own unique concerns), I can't imagine a better game than Wrestlefest for what it was. But it ain't 1991 anymore, and the format couldn't be more different either. As long as the public entertains simplistic arguments such as these, the more endangered are the prospects of us getting games that aren't simplistic (and being jerks about Internet petitions that attempt to address the problem doesn't help either.
Edited by Perfect_Plex, Jul 2 2009, 05:35 PM.
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| Perfect_Plex | Jul 11 2009, 06:32 PM Post #4 |
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Was fortunate enough to play with my brother for a an hour or two. He's very smart about games and has a little programing experience, though he doesn't know much about wrestling. It was a lot of fun. Being the more experienced player, I would stipulate that I had to win with a successful chain finisher. So I'd finally get it, but then of course his manager would put a foot on the rope and he'd win a chain to roll me up into a successful pin. Some pretty riotous stuff going on, you know. He seemed to simultaneously enjoy the QTE element, while also feeling as if it pulled him out of the experience (away from what he really wanted to do) a bit too much. I think maybe they should have programmed it so groggy grapples don't automatically go into QTEs, or maybe designated specific moves which elicit the groggy state. But it is a tough thing to balance out. Also had some pretty good matches with Bret and Flair on 1-player, marred only slightly by lack of real submission system. Such a bittersweet game! |
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Especially if it's all pre-loaded on the disc anyway ... would they really wait this long to pull the trigger? Even some alternate attires would be great. Guys like Warrior, Jake, and Mr. Perfect are just begging for more attires. We finally get the UW, some of his moves are pretty damn good, and yet there you are stuck with only his WM VI attire (meanwhile we get lame LOD alternate attires and the Sarge and Shiek wear their Iraqi garb during the matches...doh!) Hopefully we'll still get something before the summer's out.



Glad you are still enjoying it, and I think our senses of the game probably aren't all that divergent though your play style does seem to focus more on the spectacle (or aesthetic, as you said) end of things rather than on the competitive aspect.
2:33 PM Jul 11