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Religion
Topic Started: Jun 29 2009, 11:52 AM (3,510 Views)
K-B
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it's too bad i don't take history
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ellipsis
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Jul 16 2009, 12:37 AM
thanks JRICH :P finally someone who says what i've said like 6 million times haha

you can't compare us to god. Were nothing like him. Our only thing in common is our Image. We were made to look like him :P thats it
If we were made in god's image then he is truly an ugly sonofaclock...Just go to WalMart, you'll understand what I mean.

Ok, bad joke, couldn't resist. :P

Anyway, to think that god made us "in his image" is nothing more than typical human arrogance. Among such previous gems of asinine arrogance are "The sun revolves around the Earth," "The White Man's Burden (the Western worlds need to colonize "lesser" nations)," the widespread belief that homo sapiens is the pinnacle of 100 million plus years of evolution (this example is for all the more or less non-religious folks out there), and that "aliens" are green/grey four-limbed upright walking creatures that look more or less like us.

If such a thing as "god" exists, it exists in a form and dimension that we humans cannot possibly comprehend. If god is truly the creator of all things then would that not require an intelligence and construction that far surpasses our own? And, if this intelligence and construction does truly exist, how exactly would us mortal humans test/comprehend such an existence? Don't get me wrong, we're a remarkably constructed/evolved species, but we do have our limits do we not? What I'm getting at is...well...we're not the end-all-be-all of everything in the universe. To assume otherwise is illogical, for lack of a better way to put it.

There is no real test to perform to determine whether god exists or not. Any test that could be performed would be flawed because it would be performed by humans within human parameters. If we ever come in contact with an alien species, perhaps we should ask them to do this test for us and then we could put this issue to rest once and for all.



DISCLAIMER: I am not religious but I am not "militant" towards those who are. Whether you believe in god or not, I could really give a sleep. It is not my place to judge another person based on their beliefs. I am critical of the religious perspective simply because that is my personality. I rarely ever take things at face value...And INSK, I apologize for quoting your post, dude. No hard feelings, yours just seemed to be the most related to what I wanted to say.


EDIT: I'm really surprised this thread is still active, but not in a bad way. I hope it keeps going for a while. Open debate is very necessary on this topic for two reasons: 1) open debate in America (where I live) is impossible, pure and simple. If you live here, maybe you know what I mean, maybe you don't. If you don't live here, stay here for a couple months and you'll see what I mean. 2) This is THE ONLY thread I actually enjoy posting on on this forum.
Edited by ellipsis, Jul 18 2009, 04:41 AM.
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TeraHammer
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INSK
 
exactly as mhu puts it


Mhuahaha
 
I think the whole being of a god is structured in such a way that that god's existance cannot be proven nor can anything what anybody says disprove the existance of a god thanks to the sheer nature of that god.

Also, God's existance is based on faith. Give proof and you lose faith and as such kill god.


Insk, I just want to note this is the view of agnosticism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
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Mhuahaha
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Hmm, I do think my line of thought fits neatly into that picture. It is mainly, every single argument one can think of against a god can be answered by simply saying "But he/she/it is a god" hence making the previous argument null and void using an idea of what a god is.

Like it says of agnosticism, this practise can hardly be called emperic.

Also and this one is for ellipsis, there is a theory in evolution. If you were to have a pavement on which the y-axes is time and the x-axes more complexity.Now, this one theory stated that, if the previous comparison holds true, you have to the left a wall and a to the right a ditch. The left wall signifies the utmost lowest complexity a living thing can have. This creature is a single celled organism with just the very basic things it needs to survive. The right ditch symbolises the end of evolution, the pinnacle of complexity. Any more complex than the animals bordering on the ditch and they wont be able to sustain themselves. They became too complex to be viable. Coinsidently, I believe us humans are placed somewhere close to the right ditch, which I wholly agree is pretty darn arrogant of us. But there you have it.
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INSK
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No offense taking ellipsis :P i think you and I have had more bias discussions together than anyone on this forum haha

TeraHammer
 
this is the view of agnosticism

And TH :P i've never even heard of agnosticism before how do you find this stuff :| your to smart for me haha.


Mhuahaha
 
Also and this one is for ellipsis, there is a theory in evolution. If you were to have a pavement on which the y-axes is time and the x-axes more complexity.Now, this one theory stated that, if the previous comparison holds true, you have to the left a wall and a to the right a ditch. The left wall signifies the utmost lowest complexity a living thing can have. This creature is a single celled organism with just the very basic things it needs to survive. The right ditch symbolises the end of evolution, the pinnacle of complexity. Any more complex than the animals bordering on the ditch and they wont be able to sustain themselves. They became too complex to be viable. Coinsidently, I believe us humans are placed somewhere close to the right ditch, which I wholly agree is pretty darn arrogant of us. But there you have it.


It is quite possible we are near that second ditch as we have evolved enough to practically create our own enviroment and standards. And it's possible those animals/creatures outside of our base communities are evolving around our enviroment too. Possibly this all has to do with domestication. Could it be that humans have reached the brink of evolution cause we learned how to Warp the world around us?

Edited by INSK, Jul 18 2009, 12:35 PM.
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Jul 18 2009, 12:33 PM
It is quite possible we are near that second ditch as we have evolved enough to practically create our own enviroment and standards. And it's possible those animals/creatures outside of our base communities are evolving around our enviroment too. Possibly this all has to do with domestication. Could it be that humans have reached the brink of evolution cause we learned how to Warp the world around us?
Not really. You should see it more in sustaining ourselves.

Us humans have evolved in such a way that our brain has increased size....dramaticly. We currently have between 1300cc and 1700cc brain volume. The Homo habilis had around 500cc to 600cc approximately. This huge increase in brain size isn't for nothing. The Homo habilis was the first to use tools. Its name means "handy man". These tools were basic mode 1 tools though. But still, they were used. We've come a long way in the 2 million years since Homo habilis (Though sometimes called Australopithecus habilis because it basicly looks more like an Australopithecene hominid).

Our brain size has increased dramaticly. But not just that. How we destribute our energy has also changed. To illustrate this, we need to look at our nephew, the Homo Neanderthalensis. This guy has basicly the same brain size. HOWEVER! They use their energy differently. I had this real nice picture illustrating this, but sadly I can't find it right now. Basicly it shows the difference in energy distribution in the body of a neanderthal and a human. Neanderthal uses the energy he gets a lot more for digestion. Us humans invest about a third of our energy in our brain compared to the neanderthals 1/4th or 1/5th.

We use our big brain very intensively and it needs a lot of energy. Now, this isn't that much of a problem because we can muster the energy. However, as creatures get more complex, they need more energy to survive. If we, as humans, become so complex that we need more energy than we can muster from continuous eating and digesting(do note that digesting also uses energy). So, an animal can only get as complex as its niche allows it to.

So, how come us humans have evolved in such a way that we need tons of energy for our brain? Our big brain is a big downside you know. We need a lot of energy to sustain it. We also need to invest a lot of energy in our offspring before they are capable of taking care of themselves in their energy needs. According to a graph created by Will Roebroeks, a human needs a lot of energy and is only able to sustain itsself fully from the age of 18. In contrast to this, chimpansee children can sustain themselves after the age of 1. There is another side to this story. Adult humans, unlike adult chimpansees, end up gathering a lot more energy than they need. Energy which they can then invest in their children.

The increased size of our brain has allowed us to gather more energy, though not in an easilly habitated niche. The neanderthal and us humans, one a good deal smarter, both living in a niche which can easilly sustain them, us humans will only be able to harvest a bit more energy than the neanderthal. It is when we enter a niche which is dificult to live in that the bigger brain comes to its own. This bigger brain allows us humans to harvest so much more energy than the neanderthal can. Not only that, but it allowes us to gain so much more energy in the dificult niche than we can gain in the easy niche.

Now, our bigger brain allowes us to gain more energy in a dificult niche. Aquiring so much more energy than we need allowes us to invest that energy in our children. The result of this is that our brain size can increase to be able to attain even more energy from our difficult niche. This kind of gives us a chicken or the egg question. What came first? An increase in brain size, or an increased amount of energy which we can invest in an increased brain size. I don't know. I believe one theory is that early humans were forced to occupy a more dificult niche which kickstarted the whole thing. But, I don't know.

On a side note, you said domestication. A funny thing is, if you look at the place where domestication began, the fertile cresent in the near east, it is in Turkey, Israel, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, you'll find it is very easy to live a hunting and gathering type existance there. Not just that, you'll be able to gather your basic energy needs in a lot less time than it would take you to aquire it through farming and herding. So, we have no idea why we ever started domesticating crops and animals if it's so much easier to just take what you need.

And I realise this might be a bit difficult for some of you. :$
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ReidE96
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The thing about Pascal's wager is that there's some flaws in it. No god = all gone, yep, sure. God takes everyone to heaven, that's also fine. But consider how many religions there are, then factor in all the folk who believe in God, but aren't religious. That's a lot of possible gods. I forget who it is, I think it might be Hindus, but some group go with a belief of what you believe is true for you. There's so many possibilities, and many saying that if you don't agree with them then you burn. All the wager does is argue that, statistically, it's better to believe in a God from an after-death point of view. As I've said before (though it might have been in a similar thread on another forum, dunno if I've said it here), I'm a Christian Agnostic. I believe in a God, I believe the Christian doctrine is true, but I also believe that it's impossible to prove one way or another. Now, say tomorrow it was proven once and for all that there is no God. I would accept that, and get on with my life. Now to throw out something about anger. Righteous anger is different to RAAAAAAAAAGE. Righteous anger is like the anger you feel seeing some starving kid in Africa, who has absolutely nothing and no chance to get anything, being laughed at by folk who have way too much (i.e. rich fat man/woman). You want to beat the crap out of them for being massive douches. That's not 'sin'.

On another aside, I've said it like with my belief (so it might be on other forum), most philosophers and scientists are NOT atheist. Most believe in a first cause god, which is based on a logical argument (runs something like all effects have causes. These causes are the effect of something else. You cannot have an infinite chain (from some other thing I forget), hence there must be a first cause which had no cause of its own. This first cause is god, but it's not the sort of omnipotent being type thing).
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TeraHammer
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but some group go with a belief of what you believe is true for you.


Actually, I can find myself in that.
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drizzt2008
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That is way it is called "being saved" sooner or later if your meant to beleive you will believe.

INSK not trying to be a smartass.... but i didnt know that christians beleived in fate...

oh yeah and KB good vids on the 1st page...
Edited by drizzt2008, Aug 4 2009, 07:10 AM.
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