general god debate

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general god debate
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 12 2010, 09:58 PM (325 Views)
Deleted User	Apr 12 2010, 09:58 PM Post #1
Deleted User	this is a challenge to the idea of god, not specifically christianity (my usual target) but on the idea of god... it's about 2500 years old: Epicurus – Greek philosopher “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” DEBATE
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Nijg	Apr 12 2010, 10:23 PM Post #2
rude crude piece of food Posts: 7,332 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 What version of GM do you use? 6 Pro	He is able and willing, but does not in some cases because it would be for our greater good (such as a test of faith, etc.) As the Book of Mormon puts it many times over, the good will be triumphant over evil 100% at the last day.
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Martho	Apr 12 2010, 10:40 PM Post #3
Posts: 1,404 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 Activity Level Active	If he just constantly destroyed all evil then this life wouldn't be very much of a test, would it?



Deleted User	Apr 12 2010, 10:48 PM Post #4
Deleted User	if god is omnipotent he does not need to test us, he would already know all of our hearts.
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TMoT	Apr 12 2010, 11:09 PM Post #5
Your Bestest Nightmare Posts: 5,021 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	Yeah, I don't get why he would test us eith--nm, I think I do: I don't think that testing us would be for God's confirmation, but rather ours. To tell us that we really do believe. (I do think there's a lot more to this than just testing us. But you'll have to ask if you want my idea on it.) Quote: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Willing (At times, look above; Always wanting to, I think) and Able Quote: Is he able, but not willing? ^Look above^ Code: `Is he both able and willing?` ^Look above^ Quote: Is he neither able nor willing? ^Look above^ That quote makes sense, if you forget about all kinds of other what if's. (At least in my opinion) (How about yours?)
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Deleted User	Apr 12 2010, 11:31 PM Post #6
Deleted User	what i wonder is why god created evil in the first place? then he woukldn't even need to test us. and why create evil if you only plan to snuff it out? perhaps he is unable to keep evil from occuring in his creations. then why call him god?
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TMoT	Apr 13 2010, 12:03 AM Post #7
Your Bestest Nightmare Posts: 5,021 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	DarthMarus Apr 12 2010, 11:31 PM what i wonder is why god created evil in the first place? then he woukldn't even need to test us. and why create evil if you only plan to snuff it out? Yeah, I remember wondering that. What I don't remember is what I came up with for an answer. Hopefully I'll remember in a dream tonight or something. Quote: perhaps he is unable to keep evil from occuring in his creations. then why call him god? Lol, read the bible. If you're to lazy, click here (Not a quote but instead what I remember) It's because we can make decisions for ourselves. But he's definitely not unable, it's because of choice.
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Deleted User	Apr 13 2010, 12:36 AM Post #8
Deleted User	what about us makes choices? somethnig taht he created. why did he create anything that is flawed? something that even MIGHT choose to be evil?
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carterv	Apr 13 2010, 01:23 AM Post #9
Carter V. Posts: 3,500 Group: Members Member #4 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 What version of GM do you use? 7 Pro	I've had that quote on my facebook for a couple months. If there were any gods, I would classify them as able but not willing, so malevolent.



Vlad	Apr 13 2010, 06:18 AM Post #10
Posts: 1,021 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	Some might say, if they believe in what I see as the ridiculously naïve and unrealistic idea of the dichotomy of good and evil and in some greater supernatural creator, that this creator made evil so that man could prove himself and his faith. That's the only idea I can think of right now. I've never been able to live in a universe like that myself. The planets turn not because they have purpose, but because the universe works as such. And then someone asks "why?" and our knowledge of the universe expands. The answer to "why?" is never a purpose given to the natural by something supernatural, because purpose, not unlike justice or freedom, is a man-made concept. And this repeats. So, back to the good and evil thing. I think things are a blotchy grey color, defined by natural ideas and concept and laws. An ultimate good or an ultimate evil means that you must have a much less grey universe. But, look at mankind. Morality has always been muddy. Good and evil have never been definite across cultures. Many cultures, particularly Asian ones, do not even have a true good and evil. How can thee things be true--the God that defines them, the good and evil that supposedly exist as absolutes--if so many cultures differ in their opinions? It makes no sense. Many cultures have very similar ideas in a central creator, often with similar creeds and codes of conduct.



Peter Porky	Apr 13 2010, 08:03 AM Post #11
Posts: 1,400 Group: Members Member #19 Joined: Apr 4, 2010	...Because free will exists "what i wonder is why god created evil in the first place?" Black cannot exist without white Up cannot exist without down Wrong cannot exist without right Good cannot exist without evil You can't have the opposite of something exist without the opposite existing, otherwise our universe would be in a perfect neutral order with lack of opposites and nothing would happen :\|. Edited by Peter Porky, Apr 13 2010, 08:07 AM.



Thinvader747	Apr 13 2010, 02:56 PM Post #12
I can seeeeeee youuuuuuu Posts: 1,699 Group: Members Member #6 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 Activity Level Active What version of GM do you use? 7 Pro	"Good cannot exist without Evil" How? In what possible way can this quote be true? If there was no evil, there would be nothing but perfection. Which is what the Garden Of Eden was supposed to be, right? Good can exist without evil. We just wouldn't have a name for it. I wonder... Does everyone who believes in God believe in ghosts? Or any form of supernatural being besides God?
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Deleted User	Apr 13 2010, 09:51 PM Post #13
Deleted User	Black cannot exist without white Up cannot exist without down Wrong cannot exist without right Good cannot exist without evil that's one of those quotes that sounds rue, but when you look closely is actually not. light is jsut a concentration of photons that our eyes measure. different frequency spectrums change what WE percive as colors. rwould red exist without it's iopposite color, oovooloog? yes, it does. because oovooloog doesn't exist. every single one of the things you mentioed is an abstraction. not one of them would be defined if people hadn't defined them. TV is right. something doesn't need an opposite to exist. does the number 4 exist? what is 4's opposite? negative four? imaginary four? 5? and if that doesn't work explain the opposite of this: "Good cannot exist without Evil" is one of the many stupid things that people say because it sounds smart, but which unfourtunatly makes you look like an idiot.
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Nijg	Apr 13 2010, 10:20 PM Post #14
rude crude piece of food Posts: 7,332 Group: Members Member #2 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 What version of GM do you use? 6 Pro	DarthMarus Apr 12 2010, 11:31 PM what i wonder is why god created evil in the first place? then he woukldn't even need to test us. and why create evil if you only plan to snuff it out? perhaps he is unable to keep evil from occuring in his creations. then why call him god? The purpose of testing us is so that we can learn to become like Him one day. And actually, from what I have learned, planet Earth is the only planet He's created that has a devil, as when creating the other planets with people on them no one rebelled against Him to that extent. (Evil is possible without a devil, its just much much easier to slip with the devil around tempting you.)
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TMoT	Apr 14 2010, 01:41 AM Post #15
Your Bestest Nightmare Posts: 5,021 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	DarthMarus Apr 13 2010, 12:36 AM what about us makes choices? somethnig taht he created. why did he create anything that is flawed? something that even MIGHT choose to be evil? I left a part out of that, he didn't make us to be perfect, that's not what he wanted(From what I remember at least) Vlad Some might say, if they believe in what I see as the ridiculously naïve and unrealistic idea of the dichotomy of good and evil and in some greater supernatural creator, that this creator made evil so that man could prove himself and his faith. That's the only idea I can think of right now. Did you read my post? Vlad I've never been able to live in a universe like that myself. The planets turn not because they have purpose, but because the universe works as such. And then someone asks "why?" and our knowledge of the universe expands. The answer to "why?" is never a purpose given to the natural by something supernatural, because purpose, not unlike justice or freedom, is a man-made concept. And this repeats. Yeah, umm, do you even know ANYONE who goes on about purposes? If you do that's pretty weird--no offense(to them, and/or you). Other than that drooling about purpose, you're absolutely right. Vlad So, back to the good and evil thing. I think things are a blotchy grey color, defined by natural ideas and concept and laws. An ultimate good or an ultimate evil means that you must have a much less grey universe. But, look at mankind. Morality has always been muddy. Good and evil have never been definite across cultures. Many cultures, particularly Asian ones, do not even have a true good and evil. Um, okay, where's this going? Vlad How can thee things be true--the God that defines them, the good and evil that supposedly exist as absolutes--if so many cultures differ in their opinions? It makes no sense. Many cultures have very similar ideas in a central creator, often with similar creeds and codes of conduct. And now we're back to: "Did you read my post?" PP ...Because free will exists "what i wonder is why god created evil in the first place?" Black cannot exist without white Up cannot exist without down Wrong cannot exist without right Good cannot exist without evil You can't have the opposite of something exist without the opposite existing, otherwise our universe would be in a perfect neutral order with lack of opposites and nothing would happen :\|. Please--PLEASE stop before it's too late. (Although the free will things right) ThinVader "Good cannot exist without Evil" How? In what possible way can this quote be true? If there was no evil, there would be nothing but perfection. Right (Not being sarcastic) ThinVader Which is what the Garden Of Eden was supposed to be, right? WTD? (D=DuctTape) ThinVader Good can exist without evil. We just wouldn't have a name for it. Right (Again, not being sarcastic) ThinVader I wonder... Does everyone who believes in God believe in ghosts? Or any form of supernatural being besides God? Kinda, not ghosts, but I guess angles and stuff count. DM Black cannot exist without white Up cannot exist without down Wrong cannot exist without right Good cannot exist without evil that's one of those quotes that sounds rue, but when you look closely is actually not. light is jsut a concentration of photons that our eyes measure. different frequency spectrums change what WE percive as colors. rwould red exist without it's iopposite color, oovooloog? yes, it does. because oovooloog doesn't exist. every single one of the things you mentioed is an abstraction. not one of them would be defined if people hadn't defined them. TV is right. something doesn't need an opposite to exist. does the number 4 exist? what is 4's opposite? negative four? imaginary four? 5? and if that doesn't work explain the opposite of this: I think you're taking that quote a little to literally. DM "Good cannot exist without Evil" is one of the many stupid things that people say because it sounds smart, but which unfourtunatly makes you look like an idiot. THANK GOD! You aren't a retard! Nijg And actually, from what I have learned, planet Earth is the only planet He's created that has a devil, as when creating the other planets with people on them no one rebelled against Him to that extent. Is that some kind of Mormon thing? Weird... Nijg (Evil is possible without a devil, its just much much easier to slip with the devil around tempting you.) Well duh!(No offense intended)
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Peter Porky	Apr 14 2010, 02:16 AM Post #16
Posts: 1,400 Group: Members Member #19 Joined: Apr 4, 2010	If we had Good and no evil, Good would have no meaning, it would be a completely neutral feeling like I said. Yes, four's opposite is negative for. Negative numbers would not exist without positive numbers... When dealing with numbers we usually deal if objects or matter for instance... space and matter... Matter would not exist without space as everything would be in a tightly packed perfect order. Let's take the definition of good: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious How can moral's exist without evil? How can virtue exist if there is no flaw? How can one be righteous when there is no wrong? We live in a universe of order and disorder; Most everything has an opposite, and if they don't they are completely and utterly neutral, like our universe would be without opposites. "How? In what possible way can this quote be true? If there was no evil, there would be nothing but perfection" Pefection: the highest degree of proficiency, skill, or excellence, as in some art. ...If everything is perfect, we'd all have the SAME degree of proficiency, skill, and excellence... making it completely neutral, everything the same. A world of perfection is a world of order and neutrality, nothing would happen... that's why we have free will. "light is jsut a concentration of photons that our eyes measure. different frequency spectrums change what WE percive as colors." If you are going to go as far as to disect it in that manor then... White is light(all colors), black is shadow and darkness(no colors)... whether or not we perceive it as colors, light and lack of light are still opposites, and cannot exist without eachother. Plus, you are completely in the wrong area of 'colors', you are using colors as visible colors(photons etc.) but using 'black and white' as those included colors, black and white are not among visible colors, they are shades of light and darkness, we would see them even if we are colorblind having no value to your 'concentration of photons' argument... you could've used that if I said something like yellow and purple... Edited by Peter Porky, Apr 14 2010, 02:22 AM.



Thinvader747	Apr 14 2010, 08:26 PM Post #17
I can seeeeeee youuuuuuu Posts: 1,699 Group: Members Member #6 Joined: Apr 3, 2010 Activity Level Active What version of GM do you use? 7 Pro	Peter Porky Apr 14 2010, 02:16 AM If we had Good and no evil, Good would have no meaning, it would be a completely neutral feeling like I said. Exactly my point. Good would be neutral; it would exist, but we probably wouldn't notice it, because there would be nothing to oppose it. Therefore, it can exist. Quote: How can moral's exist without evil? How can virtue exist if there is no flaw? How can one be righteous when there is no wrong? Without evil, there would be nothing to oppose people's morals. Every act would be moral. Without flaw, everything would be virtuous. If there was no wrong, everything would be righteous. We just wouldn't have a definition for them, because we wouldn't notice them. You don't notice when carbon monoxide is killing you; but it's still there. Same goes. Quote: Let's take the definition of good: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious Good would exist without evil. Again, we just wouldn't have a word for it. But people would still do things we would consider "good" in it's literal sense. Quote: Yes, four's opposite is negative for. Negative numbers would not exist without positive numbers... When dealing with numbers we usually deal if objects or matter for instance... space and matter... Matter would not exist without space as everything would be in a tightly packed perfect order. Quote: "light is jsut a concentration of photons that our eyes measure. different frequency spectrums change what WE percive as colors." If you are going to go as far as to disect it in that manor then... White is light(all colors), black is shadow and darkness(no colors)... whether or not we perceive it as colors, light and lack of light are still opposites, and cannot exist without eachother. The theory only really applies to abstract nouns, AKA feelings and emotion. Light and numbers don't fall into that category, and therefore, these examples aren't really valid. Quote: "How? In what possible way can this quote be true? If there was no evil, there would be nothing but perfection" Pefection: the highest degree of proficiency, skill, or excellence, as in some art. ...If everything is perfect, we'd all have the SAME degree of proficiency, skill, and excellence... making it completely neutral, everything the same. A world of perfection is a world of order and neutrality, nothing would happen... that's why we have free will. ... OK. Fair enough, I suppose...
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Deleted User	Apr 14 2010, 11:04 PM Post #18
Deleted User	yet, you can get negative four not only by multiplying it by negative one but by subtracting eight. an opposites cannot have a direct transformation into each other. and still, i challege you to find the opposite of this: it is absolutley true, however, that without evil good would only be neutral. however, tjhat doesn't mean it wouldn't exist.
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Peter Porky	Apr 15 2010, 12:25 AM Post #19
Posts: 1,400 Group: Members Member #19 Joined: Apr 4, 2010	It would exist, it would just be a neutral existance of complete order, my point is that everything that does exist that has declension(I.E. Good-Evil, Morality, etc.) has an opposite, and therefore good cannot exist without evil or we would 'just not have a name for it' because its completely an utterly neutral. One of our Creator's greatest gifts is imperfection. ^Negative of an image = opposite :P... Edited by Peter Porky, Apr 15 2010, 12:25 AM.



TMoT	Apr 15 2010, 12:32 AM Post #20
Your Bestest Nightmare Posts: 5,021 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	Has anyone else here noticed that saying "God can't exist without evil" is also saying that God is going to commit suicide? Thinvader747: I was going to post this, but DT locked the topic. The saying is "Good cannot exist without Evil". Edited by Thinvader747, Apr 15 2010, 06:16 PM.
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Deleted User	Apr 15 2010, 12:39 AM Post #21
Deleted User	pp. you're not an idiot. im talking about an actual mobius strip and you know that's what i meant. not that image. if you are resorting to technicalities to defeat my argument you may as well leave now.
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Peter Porky	Apr 15 2010, 12:52 AM Post #22
Posts: 1,400 Group: Members Member #19 Joined: Apr 4, 2010	You did not ask for an opposite of a mobius strip you asked for an opposite of 'this' You are resorting to avoiding every single one of my other arguments, you may as well leave now. ...A mobius strip is non-orientable, the opposite of it would clearly be something of the inverse, something orientable. Wikipedia is win :D. Edited by Peter Porky, Apr 15 2010, 12:56 AM.



Deleted User	Apr 15 2010, 01:01 AM Post #23
Deleted User	define the opposite of a mobius strip. i dont care about your arguments. if a mobius strip, or anything else that has no opposite exists (they do) then your argument is invalid. lol but seriously. im not going to bother adressing everything you said, i'll forus on what catches my eye. here's one. you continually define things as having a single opposite. but they really dont. for example. a puzzle. it has one "ordered" state, where it is complele. it has an infinite number of opposing states. .......this is becoming more and more an argument over what definies opposites, which could become a new topic if needed.
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Peter Porky	Apr 15 2010, 01:06 AM Post #24
Posts: 1,400 Group: Members Member #19 Joined: Apr 4, 2010	The reason a möbius strip is special is because its non-orientable, its opposite would be an orientable object of the same proportions, i.e. a rubber band, or the picture I provided. ...Your wrong DM, everything has a single direct opposite... the direct opposite of this puzzle would be a negative of it, an inverse of it, etc. i.e. it being flipped over, or if you define a puzzle as something put together, then in that aspect it would be completely and utterly taken apart. Please stop with the pictures, its making this thread laggy. Besides, my face is a Jedi, your argument is invalid. Edited by Peter Porky, Apr 15 2010, 01:16 AM.



Deleted User	Apr 15 2010, 01:31 AM Post #25
Deleted User	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTQ_i3_seDc&feature=related
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DT-170x	Apr 15 2010, 03:31 PM Post #26
Posts: 1,766 Group: Members Member #7 Joined: Apr 3, 2010	I am locking this tread due to it went way off topic. Edited by DT-170x, Apr 15 2010, 03:34 PM.



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