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Poor folks and Democrats are migrating to the city; welfare offices are not that far down the road
Topic Started: Mar 22 2014, 12:19 AM (1,232 Views)
colo_crawdad
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Maybe do some reading about the Social Contract? Maybe start with the old right winger, Thomas Hobbes and then on to Locke and Rousseau? Such reading may provide some insight into what people were.are willing to give up in order to form society as well as what they can expect from their governments [society].
Edited by colo_crawdad, Mar 24 2014, 09:25 PM.
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Banandangees
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colo_crawdad
Mar 24 2014, 09:24 PM
Maybe do some reading about the Social Contract? Maybe start with the old right winger, Thomas Hobbes and then on to Locke and Rousseau? Such reading may provide some insight into what people were.are willing to give up in order to form society as well as what they can expect from their governments [society].

How many read those that you mention.... surely, not most.


But, impressions play a stronger role for the average person:

The impression of "coercion" ... as the average person may see it:

ObamaCare Sales Pitch Turns into Threat

Fear of tax motivates uninsured to accept alleged benefit...


Quote:
 
UNINSURED SIGNING UP TO AVOID PENALTY

As a March 31 deadline approaches for selecting a health insurance plan under the Affordable Care Act, the White House has been presiding over a multi-million-dollar marketing campaign to convince the uninsured that ObamaCare will be good for them. Hollywood stars and famous athletes have also joined in the promotional effort. But the Journal reports that "what seems to be motivating many as the final deadline for signing up looms is more the fear of financial penalties." (coercion)

One can't help but feel compassion for the Kansas family featured in the story that is now being bullied by the government into buying a product.
"'I'd heard it's mandatory, that if you don't have it, you're fined,' said Teresa Tovar, 36 years old, a stay-at-home mother of five. The family has a household income of $35,000 from her husband's job with a small sprinkler-systems company. She had been browsing plans online but hadn't committed to buying one when canvassers came to her door one Saturday reminding her of the March 31 deadline.


Perhaps you can write the Kansas lady a letter and convince her to read "about the Social Contract? Maybe start with the old right winger, Thomas Hobbes and then on to Locke and Rousseau? Such reading may provide some insight into what people were.are willing to give up in order to form society as well as what they can expect from their governments [society]." Although, I somehow doubt she will bother to read them, not with a $35K family income and five kids to take care of. It would so be much BS to her at this point.
Edited by Banandangees, Mar 24 2014, 10:27 PM.
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colo_crawdad
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Ban,

I cannot tell you how many adults, including those on this forum have those items, but I could come up with literally thousands of public and private school students at the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades who not only have read them but are conversant in the materials. Perhaps we expect more of high school students today than we did when many of us older folks went to school.
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Pat
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colo_crawdad
Mar 24 2014, 09:24 PM
Maybe do some reading about the Social Contract? Maybe start with the old right winger, Thomas Hobbes and then on to Locke and Rousseau? Such reading may provide some insight into what people were.are willing to give up in order to form society as well as what they can expect from their governments [society].
Theories--

Freedom in the sense of 'free will' is a multiway power to do any one of a number of things, leaving it up to us which one of a range of options by way of action we perform. What are the ethical implications of our possession of such a power?

The pre-Hobbesian scholastic view of writers such as Peter Lombard and Francisco Suarez claimed freedom as a multiway power is linked to the right to liberty understood, as a right to exercise that power, and to liberation as a desirable goal involving the perfection of that power. Freedom as a power, liberty as a right, and liberation as a desirable goal, are all linked within this scholastic view to a distinctive theory of law as constituting, in its primary form of natural law, the normative recognition of human freedom.

Hobbes's denial of the very existence of freedom as a power led him to a radical revision both of the theory of law and of the relation of law to liberty. Law and liberty were no longer harmonious phenomena, but were left in essential conflict.

One legacy of Hobbes is the attempt to base a theory of law and liberty not on freedom as a multiway power, but on rationality. Instead of an ethics of freedom, we have an ethics of reason as involving autonomy.

So what do we do guys that allows for as much personal freedom as possible in an ever encroaching, inter-dependent society of over 300,000,000. All 300 million desiring to express freedom? Ken mentioned the draft, without national defense in times of war, the very freedom of all but the mighty is threatened. A libertarian who is not consumed by theory but rather of logic, has to balance.

So why would hordes of poor people flock to a city? Access to free food, housing and comfort? As opposed to slow starvation and loss of life to the elements and disease of poor conditions. Most brought to their doorstep by a series of poor choices and for many, drug and alcohol dependency. And do they have a right to impose their needs on others and thus limit the freedom of others? The balance of a social contract is becoming over whelmed by the poor choices of the partners in society.
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colo_crawdad
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Pat,

I am not surprised that you would argue with Hobbes' deontological viewpoint as wrong. Now I would advise you progress to Locke and Rousseau. Or maybe even a teleologist such as John S. Mill.
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Thumper
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Banandangees
Mar 22 2014, 10:27 PM
campingken
Mar 22 2014, 04:39 AM
How has the ACA effected your Medicare? Do you consider Medicare also a restriction of your personal freedom?

I don't look at life in terms of, just me.

With Medicare, I don't get fined if I don't sign up for it.
Yeah, what would have happened if you refused to contribute through payroll deductions? Coercion? :teeth:
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Pat
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colo_crawdad
Mar 24 2014, 11:04 PM
Pat,

I am not surprised that you would argue with Hobbes' deontological viewpoint as wrong. Now I would advise you progress to Locke and Rousseau. Or maybe even a teleologist such as John S. Mill.
But what is the sense in arguing and debating social contract theories? Over population is my theme today, and it would be dumb of me or arrogant to suggest that I can retain the same level of privacy and freedom with this many needs clawing at my front door. Nor can you or anybody else here. I like reading and thinking about what people think and what great minds have thought in the past, but I can't see any of it as anymore than theory. Necessity outranks theory.
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Thumper
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I don't see overpopulation a problem yet. Plenty of open space left in this country. I remember one Prof telling us back in the 50s that we would reach capacity in the 80s.
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colo_crawdad
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Pat,

I suggested those readings to Ban only to help him better understand the material about which he was posting.
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Pat
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colo_crawdad
Mar 24 2014, 11:25 PM
Pat,

I suggested those readings to Ban only to help him better understand the material about which he was posting.
OK, I just thought I would throw in some added thoughts about it. I shouldn't devalue what those minds of the past thought about and brought to paper and pen, the same human nature forces were present then, just not as many people being affected. The world was a smaller place.
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