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| Solar Power isn't Feasible | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 30 2013, 12:31 AM (2,236 Views) | |
| Brewster | Jan 1 2014, 12:55 AM Post #71 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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And that certainly describes you, Neut. But we've gotten used to that. What's much worse is, when somebody posts some fact-free nonsense that you happen to agree with, you immediately assume it's true, and ignore post after post debunking it. Edited by Brewster, Jan 1 2014, 01:01 AM.
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| Neutral | Jan 1 2014, 12:57 AM Post #72 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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One cannot debunk facts Brew, I know you don't understand that though. |
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| Berton | Jan 1 2014, 01:04 AM Post #73 |
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Thunder Fan
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So far there has been nothing posted which refutes what I am posting. "Issue 2: Supply Variability One major problem with all this solar-boosting, ironically, is oversupply. It’s mind-boggling to me that a generation technology that provides less than 5% of a country’s electricity supply can be responsible for harmful excess electricity production, but it’s true. On sunny summer afternoons, Germany actually exports power at a loss compared to generation costs: EUR 0.056/kWh average electricity export sale price in 2012, [18] vs EUR 0.165/kWh average lifetime cost for all German solar installed from 2000 to 2011. [14] (This is optimistically assuming a 40 year system life and 10% capacity factor — reality is probably over EUR 0.20/kWh.) German utilities often have to pay heavy industry and neighboring countries to burn unnecessary power. On sunny summer days, businesses are firing up empty kilns and furnaces, and are getting paid to throw energy away. You can argue that this excess summer solar generation is free, but it’s not — not only is this peak summer output included in the lifetime cost math, but excess solar power actually forces conventional power plants to shut down, thereby lowering the capacity factor of coal and gas plants. Yes, this means large-scale solar adoption makes non-solar power more expensive per kWh, too! On net, excess solar generation is a significant drag on electricity economics. You’re paying for the same power generation equipment twice — once in peak conventional capacity for cloudy days, and again in peak solar capacity for sunny days — and then exporting the overage for a pittance. Why would they bother exporting at a loss? Because the feed-in-tariff laws don’t allow utilities to shut off net-metered rooftop solar. Utilities are forced by law to pay residential consumers an above-market price for power that isn’t needed. Meanwhile, Germany’s fossil-burning neighbors benefit from artificially-low EU energy market prices. This discourages them from building cleaner power themselves. It’s just a wasteful, distorted energy policy." |
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| Brewster | Jan 1 2014, 01:07 AM Post #74 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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The Truth Virgins strike again... |
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| Berton | Jan 1 2014, 01:22 AM Post #75 |
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Thunder Fan
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Insults do not refute anything. "Remember, electricity must be used in the same moment it’s generated. [29] The technology for grid-scale electricity storage does not yet exist, and nothing in the development pipeline is within two orders of magnitude of being cheap enough to scale up. Pumped-hydro storage is great on a small scale, but all the good sites are already in use in both Europe and the US. The only plan on the table for grid-scale storage is to use electric car batteries as buffers while they’re charging. But that still won’t provide anywhere near enough capacity to smooth solar’s rapidly-changing output. [19] And if people plug in their cars as soon as they get home from work and the sun goes down, the problem could get even worse. California’s regulators have recently acknowledged that the generation profile at sundown is the biggest hurdle to the growth of solar power. The classic illustration is the “duck chart” (shaped like a duck) that shows how solar forces conventional power plants to ramp up at an enormous rate when the sun stops shining in the evening: [29] People often complain about wind power being unreliable, but when you get enough wind turbines spread over a large enough area, the variability averages out. The wind is always blowing somewhere. This means distributed wind power is fairly reliable at the grid level. But all solar panels on a power grid produce power at the same time, meaning night-time under-supply and day-time over-supply. This happens every single day, forever. At least in warm countries, peak air conditioning load roughly coincides with peak solar output. But Germany doesn’t use much air conditioning. It’s just a grid management nightmare. The rate of “extreme incidents” in Germany’s power grid frequency/voltage has increased by three orders of magnitude since Energiewende started. [20]" |
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| Mike | Jan 1 2014, 02:24 AM Post #76 |
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As close as I can discern, of those posting to this topic...Joe, Corky and myself are the only members who have switched to solar power. My system generates nearly 8KW of power, it powers the home, the outbuildings on the property and the building on the adjacent property. The company that provides power for our county, Valley Electric Co-op has raised the electrical rates from 7 cents per KWH to nearly 10 with the projection to be near 12 by 2015. My system eliminates any threat of power outages. as there is back up battery storage and a 10KW diesel generator. If I need additional power the system is expandable. We also have energy efficient appliances as well as lighting. The next project is to switch to LED lighting. Our country experiences brownouts and total outages on a regular basis. During summer months even with computer run grids.. the draw exceeds capacity. Adding more electrical capacity requires a lengthy permitting process, as well as agreements for right of ways, so the Forecast is for outages and brownouts to increase, and there are no rapid electrical power plant infrastructure being readily available to take up the slack. The latest global temperature forecast is for a 7.2 F increase by 2100. That forecast was just doubled as scientists evaluated actual rates thus replacing forecasts. The affect this will have on electrical production in the west is staggering. Once plentiful snow packs are now a thing of the past and will only get worse. The fight over water for agriculture, human consumption and power production will be a bloodbath. Do you want power for the home, water for food production, or water to drink? The communities that adapt now will be the communities least affected a population growth and climate change goes forward. For those who tout negative resource material as a key to judging whether solar or wind power should be embraces..I suggest strongly that you expand your vision and while doing so, discuss this with those who have experience with off grid systems. |
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| Neutral | Jan 1 2014, 02:34 AM Post #77 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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You make lots of assumptions with nothing to back it up Mike. Why not refute the facts that have been given on this thread? |
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| campingken | Jan 1 2014, 03:45 AM Post #78 |
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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Everything has limits. The fact is that solar power is getting more effective and less expensive. However feel free to continue to enrich your for profit utility company. Perhaps the stock holders will send you a thank you card. |
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| tomdrobin | Jan 1 2014, 03:56 AM Post #79 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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The author makes a point of saying Germany's energy costs are $.34 a kwhr, which is about twice what I pay here. Then later on he says that only about 2% of Germany's electricity is from solar. If it's that small then inferring the high kwhr cost is from solar is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty. Don't loonies pick up on these discrepancies? Or are they so eager to have their beliefs validated they will swallow anything as gospel? Kind of reminds me of the first time I was directed to a Beck segment on Fox. It was his cash for clunkers piece. The lies and distortions were immediately apparent, but not to the folks who could see the "kings new clothes". Swallowing a load of BS to validate your preconceived prejudices is pitiful. |
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| Neutral | Jan 1 2014, 04:02 AM Post #80 |
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Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
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You need to try and comprehend what you read Tom. |
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