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Solar Power isn't Feasible
Topic Started: Dec 30 2013, 12:31 AM (2,234 Views)
Mike
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Berton
Jan 1 2014, 05:54 AM
Mike
Jan 1 2014, 02:24 AM
As close as I can discern, of those posting to this topic...Joe, Corky and myself are the only members who have switched to solar power.

My system generates nearly 8KW of power, it powers the home, the outbuildings on the property and the building on the adjacent property. The company that provides power for our county, Valley Electric Co-op has raised the electrical rates from 7 cents per KWH to nearly 10 with the projection to be near 12 by 2015. My system eliminates any threat of power outages. as there is back up battery storage and a 10KW diesel generator. If I need additional power the system is expandable. We also have energy efficient appliances as well as lighting. The next project is to switch to LED lighting.

Our country experiences brownouts and total outages on a regular basis. During summer months even with computer run grids.. the draw exceeds capacity. Adding more electrical capacity requires a lengthy permitting process, as well as agreements for right of ways, so the Forecast is for outages and brownouts to increase, and there are no rapid electrical power plant infrastructure being readily available to take up the slack.

The latest global temperature forecast is for a 7.2 F increase by 2100. That forecast was just doubled as scientists evaluated actual rates thus replacing forecasts. The affect this will have on electrical production in the west is staggering. Once plentiful snow packs are now a thing of the past and will only get worse. The fight over water for agriculture, human consumption and power production will be a bloodbath. Do you want power for the home, water for food production, or water to drink?

The communities that adapt now will be the communities least affected a population growth and climate change goes forward. For those who tout negative resource material as a key to judging whether solar or wind power should be embraces..I suggest strongly that you expand your vision and while doing so, discuss this with those who have experience with off grid systems.
How much experience do you have in running the national electrical gird Mike? That is what this information is about and how Solar hurts it and drives up costs. You might want to read about it and learn something.

"The severe output swings have even reached the point where Germany’s grid physically cannot operate without relying on neighboring countries to soak up the variability. The ramp-down of solar output in the evening happens faster than the rest of Germany’s generation capacity can ramp-up. (Massive power plants can’t change output very quickly.) Which either means blackouts as people get home from work, or using non-solar-powered neighbors as buffers. Here’s one day’s generation profile for German solar power, showing how net electricity imports/exports are forced to oscillate back and forth to smooth out the swings in production:

Posted Image

[21]

If Germany’s neighbors also had as many solar panels, they would all be trying to export and import at the same time, and the system would fall apart. The maximum capacity of the entire EU grid to utilize solar power is therefore much lower than the level reached by individual countries like Germany and Spain.

Solar boosters often say people need to shift their energy consumption habits to match generation, instead of making generation match consumption. That’s feasible, to an extent — perhaps 20% of power consumption can be time-shifted, mostly by rescheduling large consumers currently operating at night like aluminum electrosmelters. But modern civilization revolves around a particular work/sleep schedule, and you can’t honestly expect to change that. People aren’t going to give up cooking and TV in the evening, or wait three hours after the sun goes down to turn on the lights. And weekends have radically different consumption profiles from weekdays.

It all adds up. PV solar output doesn’t properly sync up with power demand. That severely limits the maximum percentage of our electricity needs it can provide. Germany hit that limit at about 4%. They are now finding out what happens when you try to push further."

I have not idea what is happening in Germany or other parts of the world Berton, the people I know combine solar power with a reduction in power usage across the board. I know not a single soul who is not tied to the grid, and who is not at least power neutral...that is providing enough power to the overall grid to compensate for any power used when the sun has set. As LED lighting and passive hot water heating is introduced, the draw down become even less.

I assume Germany is following the same formula. Your graphs which I have not looked, were they from German sources?
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I see much new construction in socal. Two thirds of the new houses include solar photovoltaic systems. The new codes in LA require the builders to do more of what I did when I build my house 9 years ago. Solar panels are popping up all over LA. From rooftops to hillsides. Mine was installed about 5 years ago and I am on target for a an early return of my investment.
Let the naysayers pay the higher bills, I enjoy an average $25 power bill every other month. Now if I could make some changes to cut my natural gas consumption more then I have
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Mike
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Berton
Dec 30 2013, 09:29 AM
Brewster, you keep claiming that solar power is less expensive yet keep leaving out all the costs. Why is that? Why do you keep leaving out all the bad part? Left wing propaganda?

If solar is so cheep one wonders why Germany is not building more of it.

Berton,

Below i am quoting the rest of the story that your link left out. quote:

"It's too bad that Bloomberg didn't bother telling the full story.

Germany's new coal burning plants are replacing (not adding to) the older plants that either have been or will soon be decommissioned. These new plants were planned and construction was started prior to the decision to close nuclear plants.

By 2020, 18.5 gigawatts of coal power capacity will be decommissioned, whereas only 11.3 gigawatts will be newly installed.

Furthermore those plants will be more efficient, releasing less CO2 per unit electricity produced than are the ones they are replacing. And the new coal plants are partially load-following which will result in even less CO2 emission and coal use.

As of November 2013 some 28 power plants with a collective capacity of 7,000 MW – roughly equivalent to the capacity shutdown in Chancellor Merkel’s sudden nuclear phaseout in March 2011 – have been submitted for decommissioning.

Additionally, there is discussion that all the 11.3 gigawatts of new coal may not be needed. Apparently as much as 3.1 gigawatts of new builds may be canceled."
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Brewster
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That article is absolute rubbish, Bertie.

The only truth in it is that power ramps up & down.

That is a good thing, as they can export to other countries in midday, when consumption is at its peak, and save all those countries money.

The claim that "If Germany’s neighbors also had as many solar panels, they would all be trying to export and import at the same time, and the system would fall apart." is ridiculous on many fronts - cloud cover does not match, and never will match, and they're in different time zones anyway. The bigger the area involved, the more likely it'll all average out. And in any case, there's a new invention called Batteries, and they're getting better all the time - long before every EU country has switched to Solar and Wind , Battery storage will be common, and everybody will be using power stored in the maximum periods, when, incidentally, power will be the cheapest.

But beyond that, there's an even bigger stupidity involved = believe it or not, scientists worked out many years ago exactly when the Sun sets, and even when it rises - the claim that
"The ramp-down of solar output in the evening happens faster than the rest of Germany’s generation capacity can ramp-up. (Massive power plants can’t change output very quickly.) Which either means blackouts as people get home from work, or using non-solar-powered neighbors as buffers." is totally idiotic.

Germans are pretty smart - I bet they can figure out that they should start increasing the output of their generators 10-15 minutes before the Sun sets. And if you actually looked outside, I bet that even in Oklahoma the Sun's light doesn't disappear like somebody threw a switch - the gradual fading of sunlight is a pretty good match for the gradual increase in power output from a generator.

I note you didn't put in a link - good thinking - I'm sure it would have just made you look sillier...

Man, that Right Wing Ideology sure makes you gullible.

Nice effort at protecting your Truth Virginity tho'.
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Mike
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Brewster
Jan 1 2014, 06:26 AM
That article is absolute rubbish, Bertie.

The only truth in it is that power ramps up & down.

That is a good thing, as they can export to other countries in midday, when consumption is at its peak, and save all those countries money.

The claim that "If Germany’s neighbors also had as many solar panels, they would all be trying to export and import at the same time, and the system would fall apart." is ridiculous on many fronts - cloud cover does not match, and never will match, and they're in different time zones anyway. The bigger the area involved, the more likely it'll all average out. And in any case, there's a new invention called Batteries, and they're getting better all the time - long before every EU country has switched to Solar and Wind , Battery storage will be common, and everybody will be using power stored in the maximum periods, when, incidentally, power will be the cheapest.

But beyond that, there's an even bigger stupidity involved = believe it or not, scientists worked out many years ago exactly when the Sun sets, and even when it rises - the claim that
"The ramp-down of solar output in the evening happens faster than the rest of Germany’s generation capacity can ramp-up. (Massive power plants can’t change output very quickly.) Which either means blackouts as people get home from work, or using non-solar-powered neighbors as buffers." is totally idiotic.

Germans are pretty smart - I bet they can figure out that they should start increasing the output of their generators 10-15 minutes before the Sun sets. And if you actually looked outside, I bet that even in Oklahoma the Sun's light doesn't disappear like somebody threw a switch - the gradual fading of sunlight is a pretty good match for the gradual increase in power output from a generator.

I note you didn't put in a link - good thinking - I'm sure it would have just made you look sillier...

Man, that Right Wing Ideology sure makes you gullible.

Nice effort at protecting your Truth Virginity tho'.
Brew,

You can store the excess energy produced by solar panels and wind turbines in water and use the super heated water to turn turbines at night for electricity production. You can also use the same to store heat in water for home heating at night or extract cold air from it to cool during the day. The objections I have read already have answers and those who embrace the objections are embracing nonsense.
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colo_crawdad
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Mike and Brew, allow me to say it certainly is nice to have a couple of folks like yourselves who actually know something about that which hey are posting. Thanks to the both of you for the valuable information.
Edited by colo_crawdad, Jan 1 2014, 06:39 AM.
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Brewster
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Mike
Jan 1 2014, 06:16 AM
Berton
Dec 30 2013, 09:29 AM
Brewster, you keep claiming that solar power is less expensive yet keep leaving out all the costs. Why is that? Why do you keep leaving out all the bad part? Left wing propaganda?

You don't need to prove your Right Wing bias makes it impossible for you to think things through very well, or remember what you've been told before - we already know it.

I don't leave out the bad part - I've listed costs repeatedly, just maybe not it this thread. And the costs for Fossil Fuels just keep getting worse.

In any case, listing costs for renewables is a fool's game anyway - they're dropping so fast that by the time the new numbers are posted, they're obsolete.

But for other's benefit, (not yours, you're immune to facts anyway) here's an obsolete chart:

Posted Image

LINK

Anyone checking the link would see that it was posted in 2011, and considering PV is doubling its effectiveness every 1 1/2 years, that means those numbers are very pessimistic by now. But even if that 2016 crossover point were still true, it takes a great deal of time and money to build a coal plant - Who would build one knowing that within two years Solar would be cheaper?
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Mike
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colo_crawdad
Jan 1 2014, 06:37 AM
Mike and Brew, allow me to say it certainly is nice to have a couple of folks like yourselves who actually know something about that which hey are posting. Thanks to the both of you for the valuable information.
Lowell, I forgot to wish you a Merry Christmas, the memory is not what it once was. I do hope all is well with you and your wife and family.

In past conversations I remember that Brew and his wife have taken steps to cut energy use at his home as well. I would suggest all members here do the same, and I believe that once you look into the available products and opportunities... that any doubt or questions will be relieved. Every little bit helps and every effort is rewarded with less energy use for the nation and your family.

A penny saved is a penny earned. :smile:
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Brewster
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Mike
Jan 1 2014, 06:31 AM
Brew,

You can store the excess energy produced by solar panels and wind turbines in water and use the super heated water to turn turbines at night for electricity production. You can also use the same to store heat in water for home heating at night or extract cold air from it to cool during the day. The objections I have read already have answers and those who embrace the objections are embracing nonsense.
Quite true, Mike, I stuck with batteries for simplicity.

Actually, here in Alberta we use a different method that would work very well in Germany -

During peak power output from our windmills (we don't use much Solar, but the effect's the same) We pump water up into huge reservoirs high in the mountains. Then when output from the mills slows down, we draw the water downhill through turbine generators - works great!

Southern Germany, especially where it meets the Alps, could easily do the same thing - and it's cheap to set up!
Edited by Brewster, Jan 1 2014, 06:51 AM.
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Mike
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Brewster
Jan 1 2014, 06:50 AM
Mike
Jan 1 2014, 06:31 AM
Brewster
Jan 1 2014, 06:26 AM
That article is absolute rubbish, Bertie.

The only truth in it is that power ramps up & down.

That is a good thing, as they can export to other countries in midday, when consumption is at its peak, and save all those countries money.

The claim that "If Germany’s neighbors also had as many solar panels, they would all be trying to export and import at the same time, and the system would fall apart." is ridiculous on many fronts - cloud cover does not match, and never will match, and they're in different time zones anyway. The bigger the area involved, the more likely it'll all average out. And in any case, there's a new invention called Batteries, and they're getting better all the time - long before every EU country has switched to Solar and Wind , Battery storage will be common, and everybody will be using power stored in the maximum periods, when, incidentally, power will be the cheapest.

But beyond that, there's an even bigger stupidity involved = believe it or not, scientists worked out many years ago exactly when the Sun sets, and even when it rises - the claim that
"The ramp-down of solar output in the evening happens faster than the rest of Germany’s generation capacity can ramp-up. (Massive power plants can’t change output very quickly.) Which either means blackouts as people get home from work, or using non-solar-powered neighbors as buffers." is totally idiotic.

Germans are pretty smart - I bet they can figure out that they should start increasing the output of their generators 10-15 minutes before the Sun sets. And if you actually looked outside, I bet that even in Oklahoma the Sun's light doesn't disappear like somebody threw a switch - the gradual fading of sunlight is a pretty good match for the gradual increase in power output from a generator.

I note you didn't put in a link - good thinking - I'm sure it would have just made you look sillier...

Man, that Right Wing Ideology sure makes you gullible.

Nice effort at protecting your Truth Virginity tho'.
Brew,

You can store the excess energy produced by solar panels and wind turbines in water and use the super heated water to turn turbines at night for electricity production. You can also use the same to store heat in water for home heating at night or extract cold air from it to cool during the day. The objections I have read already have answers and those who embrace the objections are embracing nonsense.
Quite true, Mike, I stuck with batteries for simplicity.

Actually, here in Alberta we use a different method that would work very well in Germany -

During peak power output from our windmills (we don't use much Solar, but the effect's the same) We pump water up into huge reservoirs high in the mountains. Then when output from the mills slows down, we draw the water downhill through turbine generators - works great!

Southern Germany, especially where it meets the Alps, could easily do the same thing - and it's cheap to set up!
Brew,

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, I pray for you and your wife daily through my prayer book. I know you two have had your battles with health issues. I never ask permission, I just do it. :smile:

The point you made is an example of what I was referring to...the answers are already being explored and acted on as alternative energy begins taking hold.
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