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How does this site look for being factual and unbiased on gun control?
Topic Started: Dec 16 2013, 08:16 AM (1,135 Views)
Mountainrivers
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Dec 17 2013, 03:55 AM
Keep whining libs and I'll still have my guns. I would move out of this country if I was so afraid of guns.
We just keep hoping you'll move out of the country.
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Neutral
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I have my guns, I'm not whining like you.
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colo_crawdad
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Mountainrivers
Dec 17 2013, 04:05 AM
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Dec 17 2013, 03:55 AM
Keep whining libs and I'll still have my guns. I would move out of this country if I was so afraid of guns.
We just keep hoping you'll move out of the country.
That is unlikely to happen. One cannot leave the country while hiding behind a keyboard.
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Neutral
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Hiding? I'm doing the same as you dummy.
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donsm60
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Brewster, I did read it and there’s a lot of factual statistics in the article and suggest everyone does the same if they want to learn something.
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donsm60
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campingken
Dec 17 2013, 02:06 AM
Armed guards at school is pie in the sky nonsense. What level of training would you require Pat? Unless you will be happy with security guard level employees you will need to pay them a living wage. How about background checks?, yearly update training and qualification?, laws of arrest and weaponless self defense training? (you can't shoot everyone). How will you administer the program as there will have to be state wide standards of hiring, training, and retention qualifications? Most importantly who will pay for this and how since additional taxes are never allowed on the Conservative table?

Realistically we have to accept that Americans are the most violent people of all the industrial nations. We will have to live with gun violence. It is impossible to get rid of all the ones that are currently out there and adding more hasn't seemed to change much. The CCW laws are as loose as they have ever been in modern times yet there has been no drastic reduction in violent crime.

My solution would be to make ALL gun crimes punishable by either death or life without parole. If you carry a gun when you commit any crime the legal presumption should be that you intended to kill someone with it. With rights come responsibility. This would not end gun violence but hopefully it would take a big bite out of it. However doing this would be very expensively but, I believe, money well spent.
Ken, placing armed personal in schools isn’t rocket science at least here, FL bill HB 1097 that died would have armed staff & teachers at the principle’s discretion and required the same training armed security guards receive with required annual qualification. There are more than enough qualified staff in our district interested and it would make our schools a major deterrent for a repeat of Sandy Hook. Most schools here don’t have a fulltime resource officer and with your LE background I’d hope you’d see the potential I do with a well-organized security plan and group of well-trained healthy professionals and it wouldn’t cost taxpayers anything, strictly voluntary time and costs. I don’t see the bill being much of a hurtle to pass especially if there’s another mass school shooting but there is a hurtle covering liability not being sworn LE. Also Ken, with a very successful 27 year carry program I really don’t think you understand the caliber of instructors and levels of training available here today, it’s not child’s play and the simulator technology we have would probably blow you away. If you’re ever down this way let me know and we’ll try to put together a shoot.

People can beat their heads against the wall all they want but guns and the problems aren’t going away simple as that and I’m sure we’ll see another mental case on a suicide mission trying to outdo the last targeting the weakest in society again. Then everyone around the country, the world for that matter, will be up in arms screaming nobody did anything to stop it again.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=50391
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campingken
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Don,

The reality is that if you use volunteers the first shooting that results in "collateral damage" the law suit will "break the bank". If you are going to place the safety of our most precious resource in the hands of armed men and women then the standard of training will, at the least, need to equal that of your local police.

Once you accept the care and safety of another a legal special relationship is formed that requires specific training and accountability. I am aware of the number of quality non LE firearm instructors but the requirements change when one goes from learning how to shoot along with basic firearm safety and laws to being charged with protecting children, who are not your own.

Arming teachers is also not, in my opinion, an answer. They currently need yearly training to maintain their teaching license and adding an additional 40 hour minimum of firearm and weaponless defense training a year is a heavy burden for both them, and tax payers.

I do not believe that the average parent would be happy making armed volunteers responsible for the safety of their children. I know that I would not.

Inner city schools in Los Angeles have their own police agencies and the schools are fenced like a prison. I am not aware of any Columbine type shootings at one of them. If we want safe schools we will have to pay for them.
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donsm60
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campingken
Dec 17 2013, 06:46 AM
Don,

The reality is that if you use volunteers the first shooting that results in "collateral damage" the law suit will "break the bank". If you are going to place the safety of our most precious resource in the hands of armed men and women then the standard of training will, at the least, need to equal that of your local police.

Once you accept the care and safety of another a legal special relationship is formed that requires specific training and accountability. I am aware of the number of quality non LE firearm instructors but the requirements change when one goes from learning how to shoot along with basic firearm safety and laws to being charged with protecting children, who are not your own.

Arming teachers is also not, in my opinion, an answer. They currently need yearly training to maintain their teaching license and adding an additional 40 hour minimum of firearm and weaponless defense training a year is a heavy burden for both them, and tax payers.

I do not believe that the average parent would be happy making armed volunteers responsible for the safety of their children. I know that I would not.

Inner city schools in Los Angeles have their own police agencies and the schools are fenced like a prison. I am not aware of any Columbine type shootings at one of them. If we want safe schools we will have to pay for them.
I disagree Ken, but understand the liability side and if our bill or a form of it does pass insurance is already a clear issue. I thought in your post to Pat, a states armed security guard requirements would be acceptable to you and Florida’s isn’t a walk in the park but now only sworn law enforcement training is reasonable? I wouldn’t worry too much about the volunteers here ready to sign up juggling teaching and training, most are already licensed to carry and serious about it. I know A LOT of local LE, from the average street cop to tactical and like I said I really don’t think you understand the caliber of instructors we have and the level of training available here today. We’re not talking CWP 101, Ken.

Remember Columbine when the officers refused to enter without more backup? Things are changing and will continue to, I don’t dislike cops just the opposite but don’t try to impress me with the average law enforcement officers training, it won’t work.

I see a great opportunity in the form of reality not pipe dreams but will put you down as another saying just sit back and do nothing.


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campingken
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I have no intention of trying to impress you with the average cop's level of training but please don't try to impress me with the high level of civilian critical incident training. How often have you practiced the 4 C's with a large group?

The level of training for an armed guard is minimal. Personally in a case of deadly force I believe that they would make the incident more dangerous. As far as waiting for back up keep this wise saying in mind....Only fools rush in....I have no problem with the responding officer making entry as long as he has a plan of action and at least some knowledge of what is occurring.

However why not try the volunteer program and see how many volunteers stay with it after a year or two.. If you have ever worked a fixed post you would know that not many things are more boring.

My position is if we are set on an armed presence at schools then we need to spend the money required to equip (they need a lot more than a firearm) train, staff, pay, and support them.
Edited by campingken, Dec 17 2013, 10:19 AM.
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donsm60
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Ken, do you even read what people say? What "fixed post getting bored" are you talking about?

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