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How many knew that our GM bailout money has been going to bailout foreign operations?; SEC report reveals the dirty details
Topic Started: Oct 16 2012, 08:31 AM (1,046 Views)
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Didn't read all the links but the GM bailout was a union bailout, period. Everyone else got shafted, including the taxpayers.
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Mountainrivers
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Pat
Oct 16 2012, 11:36 PM
tomdrobin
Oct 16 2012, 11:32 PM
Pat
Oct 16 2012, 11:25 PM
The pension guarantee program would have desalt with the bankrupt pension fund like all others. Pensions would have been reduced under the formula.

The parts jobs would not have been lost Tom. The competition that replaced the bankrupt company would still be buying th eparts for their product. The product that filled the market hole created by the GM and Chrsyler demise.

When Hudson, AMC, Studebaker, Cord and other auto companies went under, there was no bailout. Do you miss those companies? Is this about nostalgia or common sense. For Obama it's about politics and unions, but for the rest of us, we would not be out a source of cars if someone goes out of business.
The Pension Guarantee Corp. was not funded well enough to deal with that big of a collapse. To meet the minimum payouts via their formula which is guaranteed by law, they would have had to had a massive taxpayer bailout of the fund. Add that to all the unemployment, food stamps demands and it would have been a huge cost. Oh, and don't forget all those unemployed folks losing their homes adding to the foreclosure crisis. Hudson, AMC, Studebakers etc. did not have a large enough footprint to create a crisis of they went under. Remember though that Government loans saved Chrysler previously. I think it was under Lee Iaccoca.
Or Tom, take the logical approach, wish the former employees of GM and Chrysler good luck. Private companies and their plans go under all the time. The people pick themselves up and deal with it somehow. We don't owe union workers a pension.
"The pension guarantee program would have desalt with the bankrupt pension fund like all others"

Sounds like the pensions guarantee fund was a good idea to you until you realized it wouldn't solve the problem. I would be for doing away with the fund altogether. Pat, you also bitched about not covering SS and Medicare because it took away things people had paid for and depended on. Why the change of heart now?
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Pat
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If you look into that guaranty plan Neal, you will find that for years, contrary to it's own rules, the Pension guaranty fund allowed corporations and private pension funds to underfund their plans. The reserve obligations were just ignored by the plan even when it was aware of the pending disaster were a large corporation to go under. Fanny and Freddie suffered from the same gross mismanagment, and to add insult to injury, we as taxpayers had to bail them both out. These are glaring examples of how our government operates and why nobody should feel safe about any entitlement. Of course they will have a bag full of excuses when one goes under.
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Mountainrivers
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Pat
Oct 17 2012, 12:41 AM
If you look into that guaranty plan Neal, you will find that for years, contrary to it's own rules, the Pension guaranty fund allowed corporations and private pension funds to underfund their plans. The reserve obligations were just ignored by the plan even when it was aware of the pending disaster were a large corporation to go under. Fanny and Freddie suffered from the same gross mismanagment, and to add insult to injury, we as taxpayers had to bail them both out. These are glaring examples of how our government operates and why nobody should feel safe about any entitlement. Of course they will have a bag full of excuses when one goes under.
You could say the same thing about SS and Medicare, Pat. You were adamant that those programs should fulfill their obligations because people had paid for them. Now, it seems, you think the pensioners shouldn't get what was promised to them even though they paid for it. That's contradictory.
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SS and Medicare are compulsory.
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colo_crawdad
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I would just say that if, in fact,. we
bailed out union members" by saving their jobs, we still saved the jobs of millions of Americans. Most union members in this country are American.
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MrsS
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Quote:
 
.....Europe: Black Hole Opel......



I really wonder why GM didn`t sell Opel 3 years ago? They got a good offer.....


Quote:
 
In 2009, GM nearly sold Opel to a group lead by auto-parts supplier Magna International Inc., a deal that had been pushed by the German government as GM spiraled into bankruptcy. Under that deal, the consortium would have paid GM €300 million ($437 million) in cash, preferred stock valued at €200 million and invested €500 million in Opel.


Why keep a brand that produces only losses? Do you see a reason for that?

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Their still selling the Volt and losing money. Politics maybe?
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Mountainrivers
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MrsS
Oct 17 2012, 01:13 AM

Quote:
 
.....Europe: Black Hole Opel......



I really wonder why GM didn`t sell Opel 3 years ago? They got a good offer.....


Quote:
 
In 2009, GM nearly sold Opel to a group lead by auto-parts supplier Magna International Inc., a deal that had been pushed by the German government as GM spiraled into bankruptcy. Under that deal, the consortium would have paid GM €300 million ($437 million) in cash, preferred stock valued at €200 million and invested €500 million in Opel.


Why keep a brand that produces only losses? Do you see a reason for that?

This is one reason GM gave.

"One reason was that the European division was providing much of the small-car, fuel-efficient technology needed for the revival of its parent company."

And this is another.

"Europe’s car market may be shrinking but it is still pretty big and GM cannot afford to abandon it."

Those arguments have been debunked by recent events, but who knows what the GM execs were thinking when they made the decision not to sell to Magna.
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MrsS
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Quote:
 
"One reason was that the European division was providing much of the small-car, fuel-efficient technology needed for the revival of its parent company."



That might be true.

If I`m not mistaken, a couple of GM`s US-cars have OPEL roots.

Anyway.....I wish OPEL would be on its own again - if that`s even possible after almost 90 years of being a GM-daughter.


Pat, I`m sorry for straying a little off topic. :smile:
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