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Oligarchy; Small Groups of Multi Millionaires Funding Super Pacs
Topic Started: Feb 25 2012, 11:04 PM (1,872 Views)
Chris
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So you've found a fellow traveler who agrees with your socialist views that couches everything in terms of class struggle. As even Page says "Socialists saw evil as an inevitable result when capitalism was left to its own devices; Liberalism called for freedom from oppression, first from government, then from business; Communism—Marxism and Leninism—saw the history of man as the history of class struggle."
Edited by Chris, Feb 28 2012, 12:47 AM.
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tomdrobin
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My only point is (in case you missed it) that when government mandates fair treatment of workers, they reject socialism. Socialism in all it's forms is just a response to laizes faire capitalism and it's exploitation of the working class.
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Chris
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tomdrobin
Feb 28 2012, 12:53 AM
My only point is (in case you missed it) that when government mandates fair treatment of workers, they reject socialism. Socialism in all it's forms is just a response to laizes faire capitalism and it's exploitation of the working class.
Socialism is government mandating business how to treat workers "fairly". As a fantasy based on a labor theory of value it fails to comprehend capitalism. Value is not determined by anything but the subjective valuations of individuals.

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tomdrobin
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OSHA regulations are socialism? Only in right wing libertarian fanatical speak. :teeth:
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Brewster
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tomdrobin
 
Do you think it's just coincidence that the peak of marxist and socialist sentiments occurred during the era of the gilded age and the robber baron age?
That's a very good point, Tom.

The Right Wing thinking is (at least for those Right Wingers who think at all) that any action by the government to help out in tough times is just the first step down the slippery slope to out and out Socialism, which of course is just a temporary stop on that slope on the way to Communism.

But a quick review of history shows exactly the opposite to be true... From Russia to China to Cuba, there was no gradual sllde - it was violent revolution in reaction to repressive (and strongly conservative) regimes.

Sweden was widely considered the only truly Socialist country in the world, and even there, it's form of government was not a gradual slide from Social Democracy, but a reaction to the grasping industrialists of the mid to late 1800's. (Industrialism came late to Sweden) But the real object lesson of Sweden is exactly what it did NOT become - it did NOT continue the slippery slide into Communism, and it did NOT reduce liberties for its citizens. In fact, for many years its people were widely considered the most free spirited in the world.

So is it still in danger of sliding into Communism? No, it is not. It's gradually moving to a similar Social Democratic model to the rest of Europe. And is quite prosperous, thank you very much.

And before the US Right starts jumping up and down and claiming I'm "calling for Socialism", no I'm not. I'm just pointing out that the US Right's trying to make a boogeyman out of Socialism, but all they're really making is a straw man.
Edited by Brewster, Feb 28 2012, 06:02 AM.
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Jim Miller
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Butt out, Brew. Your nosiness is disgusting and meaningless.
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Stoney
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tomdrobin
Feb 28 2012, 01:21 AM
OSHA regulations are socialism? Only in right wing libertarian fanatical speak. :teeth:
If its not capitalism and its not socialism/communism, what is it?

I worked with OSHA regulations in a union shop and its the one thing that we agreed on, that OSHA has taken safety to a degree that no reasonable person could have anticipated.
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Chris
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Brewster
Feb 28 2012, 06:00 AM
tomdrobin
 
Do you think it's just coincidence that the peak of marxist and socialist sentiments occurred during the era of the gilded age and the robber baron age?
That's a very good point, Tom.

The Right Wing thinking is (at least for those Right Wingers who think at all) that any action by the government to help out in tough times is just the first step down the slippery slope to out and out Socialism, which of course is just a temporary stop on that slope on the way to Communism.

But a quick review of history shows exactly the opposite to be true... From Russia to China to Cuba, there was no gradual sllde - it was violent revolution in reaction to repressive (and strongly conservative) regimes.

Sweden was widely considered the only truly Socialist country in the world, and even there, it's form of government was not a gradual slide from Social Democracy, but a reaction to the grasping industrialists of the mid to late 1800's. (Industrialism came late to Sweden) But the real object lesson of Sweden is exactly what it did NOT become - it did NOT continue the slippery slide into Communism, and it did NOT reduce liberties for its citizens. In fact, for many years its people were widely considered the most free spirited in the world.

So is it still in danger of sliding into Communism? No, it is not. It's gradually moving to a similar Social Democratic model to the rest of Europe. And is quite prosperous, thank you very much.

And before the US Right starts jumping up and down and claiming I'm "calling for Socialism", no I'm not. I'm just pointing out that the US Right's trying to make a boogeyman out of Socialism, but all they're really making is a straw man.
Brewster, how can a socialist like you pretend to know what right wing thinking is?

Where do you come up with the idea one slides from socialism to communism, communism is a form of socialism just as facism, nazism and social democracy are.

Sweden, the country you socialist point to with pride, has gone through a conservative revolution, so peaceful you didn't notice it.

Why are you defending socialism?
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tomdrobin
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Stoney
Feb 28 2012, 06:27 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 28 2012, 01:21 AM
OSHA regulations are socialism? Only in right wing libertarian fanatical speak. :teeth:
If its not capitalism and its not socialism/communism, what is it?

I worked with OSHA regulations in a union shop and its the one thing that we agreed on, that OSHA has taken safety to a degree that no reasonable person could have anticipated.
It's not either or. That's an extreme view. You can have capitalism with regulation in the public interest. We've had it for years, until the current crop of right wingnuts tried to turn back the clock to the laizes faire capitalism that led to the great depression.

I also worked in a facility that had union represented employees and adherence to OSHA rules. I never saw a problem with them. The union work rules were much more of a PIA.
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Stoney
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tomdrobin
Feb 28 2012, 07:08 AM
Stoney
Feb 28 2012, 06:27 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 28 2012, 01:21 AM
OSHA regulations are socialism? Only in right wing libertarian fanatical speak. :teeth:
If its not capitalism and its not socialism/communism, what is it?

I worked with OSHA regulations in a union shop and its the one thing that we agreed on, that OSHA has taken safety to a degree that no reasonable person could have anticipated.
It's not either or. That's an extreme view. You can have capitalism with regulation in the public interest. We've had it for years, until the current crop of right wingnuts tried to turn back the clock to the laizes faire capitalism that led to the great depression.

I also worked in a facility that had union represented employees and adherence to OSHA rules. I never saw a problem with them. The union work rules were much more of a PIA.
Capitalism and socialism are opposites. They are no the same.

Capitalism was something we had before Woodrow Wilson. Then socialism lead to the Great Depression.
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