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Population control by abortion
Topic Started: Feb 25 2012, 09:43 AM (1,320 Views)
Stoney
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Maybe the next step from supporting abortion to reduce welfare recipients would be to support suicide in low income communities, then...
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campingken
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Chris,

How would you determine if the pre-born are receiving their right to 'life liberty and pursuit of happiness?" At what point will their rights begin? The moment of conception, after a day, a week?

If a mother smokes or drinks while pregnant then she is depriving her unborn of his rights as this effects his/her ability to pursue happiness once he clears the womb. Also should we require that mothers only mate with intelligent and good looking men because ugly dumb people are not as successful in the pursuit of happiness as intelligent smart ones.

Who will moniter pregneant women to assure that each pre-born receives an acceptable standard of care, once we determine what this is? Who else besides the government can enforce and protect the rights of the unborn?

A jury of "peers" would mean women who have had abortions and at the least exclude all men as biologically they are excluded from being peers.. Again you didn't define society. Do you mean neighbors, friends, extended family, cities, counties, states, or the entire nation?

Stoney,

You have obviously spent very little time in welfare areas. The chain isn't broken. Suicide is legal in all 50 states. There is no punishment prescribed and given to anyone who commits suicide.
Edited by campingken, Feb 27 2012, 02:46 AM.
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Chris
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"How would you determine if the pre-born are receiving their right to 'life liberty and pursuit of happiness?""

How is this determined for humans?

"At what point will their rights begin? The moment of conception, after a day, a week?"

Again, that is for society to decide, as it always had, before government intervened. My main contention here is to return that power to society. Now, imo, human life, as I argued above, begins at conception.

"If a mother smokes or drinks while pregnant then she is depriving her unborn of his rights ..."

Up to society I say.

"Also should we require... Who will moniter..."

Always the government solutions!

"A jury of "peers" would mean women who have had abortions and at the least exclude all men as biologically they are excluded from being peers."

Not what a jury of peers means in law.

"jury of one's peers n. a guaranteed right of criminal defendants, in which "peer" means an "equal." This has been interpreted by courts to mean that the available jurors include a broad spectrum of the population, particularly of race, national origin and gender. Jury selection may include no process which excludes those of a particular race or intentionally narrows the spectrum of possible jurors. It does not mean that women are to be tried by women, Asians by Asians, or African Americans by African Americans." (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/jury+of+one's+peers)

"Again you didn't define society. Do you mean neighbors, friends, extended family, cities, counties, states, or the entire nation?"

Did, said society as a whole. All you say. See legal definition of peers. People, you, me, everyone.
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campingken
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How will what the "people" decide be codified and enforced as you don't like government?

For example drinking alcohol can result in damage to the baby along with an unhealthy diet, not receiving pre-natal medical care, not excercising etc.. What standard would you set for these things and how would you enforce them? Who will pay for the pre-natal medical care, healthy diet, exercise classes that so many pre-born currently don't enjoy due to the cost? .

Who is this "society" that you talk about? Is it different from the one that we currently have who have already made laws and rules reguarding abortion?
Edited by campingken, Feb 27 2012, 03:37 AM.
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Chris
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"How will what the "people" decide be codified and enforced as you don't like government? "

It's already codified in the system we have. There are solutions of governance without government, but that's beside the point.



"For example drinking alcohol can result in damage to the baby along with an unhealthy diet, not receiving pre-natal medical care, not excercising etc.. What standard would you set for these things and how would you enforce them? Who will pay for the pre-natal medical care, healthy diet, exercise classes that so many pre-born currently don't enjoy due to the cost?"

Let society argue it out. I think social debate over that last decades has led to many new laws related to drinking and driving. It was society drove it, not government. --And from what I read here and there there's some backlash on the push, some pushback to ease up a bit. Society is free to do that, much freer than government.

"Who is this "society" that you talk about? Is it different from the one that we currently have who have already made laws and rules reguarding abortion?"

Society is you and me. Society is not government. --Society seems such a basic word to have to define. If I must, i would define society as the order that emerges from the interaction and exchanges of individuals, in goods, services, opinions, norms, mores, etc etc etc.
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colo_crawdad
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Chris
Feb 26 2012, 06:17 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 26 2012, 06:15 AM
Chris
Feb 26 2012, 06:13 AM
Make no sense, tom, you're babbling.
ad hom

redbutt
How can one ad hom a post? Again, makes no sense.

Why are you trying to distract from what was a good discussion?

Are you against letting society decide issues like this, tom? if so, why?
Some might consider "letting society decide" a form of populism which some argue against. Others might suggest that society has already decided that abortion should be legal and desire the Federal government to reverse that decision.
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Chris
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colo_crawdad
Feb 27 2012, 05:16 AM
Chris
Feb 26 2012, 06:17 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 26 2012, 06:15 AM
Chris
Feb 26 2012, 06:13 AM
Make no sense, tom, you're babbling.
ad hom

redbutt
How can one ad hom a post? Again, makes no sense.

Why are you trying to distract from what was a good discussion?

Are you against letting society decide issues like this, tom? if so, why?
Some might consider "letting society decide" a form of populism which some argue against. Others might suggest that society has already decided that abortion should be legal and desire the Federal government to reverse that decision.
Populism involves government, just another top-down means of deciding, no better than letting men in black robes decide. I'm not advocating that--nice try though at confusing things. I'm advocating sociaty decide, bottom up.
Edited by Chris, Feb 27 2012, 05:27 AM.
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Stoney
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campingken
Feb 27 2012, 02:44 AM
Chris,

How would you determine if the pre-born are receiving their right to 'life liberty and pursuit of happiness?" At what point will their rights begin? The moment of conception, after a day, a week?

If a mother smokes or drinks while pregnant then she is depriving her unborn of his rights as this effects his/her ability to pursue happiness once he clears the womb. Also should we require that mothers only mate with intelligent and good looking men because ugly dumb people are not as successful in the pursuit of happiness as intelligent smart ones.

Who will moniter pregneant women to assure that each pre-born receives an acceptable standard of care, once we determine what this is? Who else besides the government can enforce and protect the rights of the unborn?

A jury of "peers" would mean women who have had abortions and at the least exclude all men as biologically they are excluded from being peers.. Again you didn't define society. Do you mean neighbors, friends, extended family, cities, counties, states, or the entire nation?

Stoney,

You have obviously spent very little time in welfare areas. The chain isn't broken. Suicide is legal in all 50 states. There is no punishment prescribed and given to anyone who commits suicide.
"Stoney,

You have obviously spent very little time in welfare areas. The chain isn't broken. Suicide is legal in all 50 states. There is no punishment prescribed and given to anyone who commits suicide."

I'm missing the connection to my statement.

On edit I've been in more welfare areas than most and had my life threatened on more than one occasion. The worst I've seen are in Memphis. But i'm sure there are worse.
Edited by Stoney, Feb 27 2012, 07:56 AM.
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tomdrobin
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What's a "welfare area"? Don't you mean ghetto? Unfortunately welfare isn't just limited to ghettos. Lots and lots of poor white country folk are on the dole. I know quite a few of them personally, which I doubt most of the experts here can say.
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campingken
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So basically Chris you believe that we should just form a committee and do whatever feels good? You didn't amswer my questions about protecting the clearly violated rights of the unborn assuming that the committee idea bombs..

Here in Washington, especially on the local level, society is the government as it involes you and me. What's different about Texas?

Tom,

The welfare chain is fairly color blind...
Edited by campingken, Feb 27 2012, 11:25 AM.
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