Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
What was the vision of our early presidents?
Topic Started: Feb 21 2012, 09:35 AM (1,185 Views)
Chris
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Feb 22 2012, 11:17 PM
No one worships government here. In a way it's just a necessary evil, to counter the excesses of human nature. Goody goody feel good capitalism whereby the guy who works the hardest and creates the best widget comes out on top is a fantasy. Usually in the absence of government it's the guy who is the most ruthless and exploitive that ends up on top of the heap. The robber barons of old just outright bought politicians, the newer version does it legally and indirectly via the disemination of propogada for the lower level right wing stool pigeons and heavy campaign financing.
"No one worships government here."

It's a metaphor, Tom.

"In a way it's just a necessary evil, to counter the excesses of human nature."

That's interesting, given that men govern men, then government by your reckoning is the excesses of human nature governing the excesses of human nature. That's bound to fail.

"Goody goody feel good capitalism..."

One, you're conflating politics and economics there, but two, you're also claiming capitalism is something it's not--does "goody goody feel good" even mean anything? Ditto the rest of your leftist description of capitalism.
Edited by Chris, Feb 22 2012, 11:25 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Stoney
No Avatar
Sr. Member
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Feb 22 2012, 11:17 PM
No one worships government here. In a way it's just a necessary evil, to counter the excesses of human nature. Goody goody feel good capitalism whereby the guy who works the hardest and creates the best widget comes out on top is a fantasy. Usually in the absence of government it's the guy who is the most ruthless and exploitive that ends up on top of the heap. The robber barons of old just outright bought politicians, the newer version does it legally and indirectly via the disemination of propogada for the lower level right wing stool pigeons and heavy campaign financing.
Campaign contributions by political entrepreneurs occur only because those government representatives that you hold in such high esteem can help those political entrepreneurs form the market in their favor. Without that ability there would be no reason to provide the contributions. With that ability there is no way to keep that money from flowing.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tomdrobin
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Stoney
Feb 23 2012, 08:07 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 22 2012, 11:17 PM
No one worships government here. In a way it's just a necessary evil, to counter the excesses of human nature. Goody goody feel good capitalism whereby the guy who works the hardest and creates the best widget comes out on top is a fantasy. Usually in the absence of government it's the guy who is the most ruthless and exploitive that ends up on top of the heap. The robber barons of old just outright bought politicians, the newer version does it legally and indirectly via the disemination of propogada for the lower level right wing stool pigeons and heavy campaign financing.
Campaign contributions by political entrepreneurs occur only because those government representatives that you hold in such high esteem can help those political entrepreneurs form the market in their favor. Without that ability there would be no reason to provide the contributions. With that ability there is no way to keep that money from flowing.
Government always has the ability to help business. That's not always a bad thing. But, when big money enfluences a politican to favor their position when it is counter to public interests, then it's a problem.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Stoney
No Avatar
Sr. Member
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Feb 23 2012, 01:14 PM
Stoney
Feb 23 2012, 08:07 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 22 2012, 11:17 PM
No one worships government here. In a way it's just a necessary evil, to counter the excesses of human nature. Goody goody feel good capitalism whereby the guy who works the hardest and creates the best widget comes out on top is a fantasy. Usually in the absence of government it's the guy who is the most ruthless and exploitive that ends up on top of the heap. The robber barons of old just outright bought politicians, the newer version does it legally and indirectly via the disemination of propogada for the lower level right wing stool pigeons and heavy campaign financing.
Campaign contributions by political entrepreneurs occur only because those government representatives that you hold in such high esteem can help those political entrepreneurs form the market in their favor. Without that ability there would be no reason to provide the contributions. With that ability there is no way to keep that money from flowing.
Government always has the ability to help business. That's not always a bad thing. But, when big money enfluences a politican to favor their position when it is counter to public interests, then it's a problem.
I agree that government always has the ability to help business and that it can be a problem, I would argue is a problem, not the role of government to help one business over another.

My main argument is that government wouldn't be able to help political entrepreneurs squash competition if it did not have the ability to treat one business differently than others.

I don't see a comment on that assertion, just a repeat of what you've already said.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chris
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
"Government always has the ability to help business. That's not always a bad thing. But, when big money enfluences a politican to favor their position when it is counter to public interests, then it's a problem."

Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.

Seems to be illegal activity by government is OK if you think it provides for or runs counter to your opinions, given you alone nor anyone else can define public interest in a meaningful way.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mountainrivers
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Chris
Feb 23 2012, 09:24 PM
"Government always has the ability to help business. That's not always a bad thing. But, when big money enfluences a politican to favor their position when it is counter to public interests, then it's a problem."

Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.

Seems to be illegal activity by government is OK if you think it provides for or runs counter to your opinions, given you alone nor anyone else can define public interest in a meaningful way.
"given you alone nor anyone else can define public interest in a meaningful way. "

How true that is. Many of us would consider helping the less fortunate among us, in the public interest. Others would not. While others might consider attacking Iran in the public interest, others would not. Then there are extremes. There are people who would think that Socialism is in the public interest. Then there's people like Pat, whose only interest is personal, and apparently thinks there is no such thing as "the public interest". I think most of us look at it like we look at pornography. We know it when we see it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tomdrobin
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Chris
Feb 23 2012, 09:24 PM
Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.
And, if government does not have this power, what do you do about the excesses of economic power? Before government assumed this kind of power, it was basically a war between the barons and the unions with a lot of bloodshed. And, during that period the enfluence of communism and socialism was rampant because of the bitterness toward corporate and individual greed. Seems a democraticly elected government regulating in the public interest is a much better approach than laizes faire or socialism.

The problem we have now is not government power. It's the corruption of that power by economic forces.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chris
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
Mountainrivers
Feb 23 2012, 09:38 PM
Chris
Feb 23 2012, 09:24 PM
"Government always has the ability to help business. That's not always a bad thing. But, when big money enfluences a politican to favor their position when it is counter to public interests, then it's a problem."

Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.

Seems to be illegal activity by government is OK if you think it provides for or runs counter to your opinions, given you alone nor anyone else can define public interest in a meaningful way.
"given you alone nor anyone else can define public interest in a meaningful way. "

How true that is. Many of us would consider helping the less fortunate among us, in the public interest. Others would not. While others might consider attacking Iran in the public interest, others would not. Then there are extremes. There are people who would think that Socialism is in the public interest. Then there's people like Pat, whose only interest is personal, and apparently thinks there is no such thing as "the public interest". I think most of us look at it like we look at pornography. We know it when we see it.
Define public interest. How would you even go about that? Any aggregation of individual interests leads to abstractions.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chris
Member Avatar
Fire & Ice Senior Diplomat
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Feb 24 2012, 12:23 AM
Chris
Feb 23 2012, 09:24 PM
Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.
And, if government does not have this power, what do you do about the excesses of economic power? Before government assumed this kind of power, it was basically a war between the barons and the unions with a lot of bloodshed. And, during that period the enfluence of communism and socialism was rampant because of the bitterness toward corporate and individual greed. Seems a democraticly elected government regulating in the public interest is a much better approach than laizes faire or socialism.

The problem we have now is not government power. It's the corruption of that power by economic forces.
What excesses of economic power exist without the crony capitalistic support of government? I've asked you for months where this power comes from other than government.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Stoney
No Avatar
Sr. Member
[ * ]
tomdrobin
Feb 24 2012, 12:23 AM
Chris
Feb 23 2012, 09:24 PM
Government should not have this power, it is always a bad thing that leads to crony capitalism.
And, if government does not have this power, what do you do about the excesses of economic power? Before government assumed this kind of power, it was basically a war between the barons and the unions with a lot of bloodshed. And, during that period the enfluence of communism and socialism was rampant because of the bitterness toward corporate and individual greed. Seems a democraticly elected government regulating in the public interest is a much better approach than laizes faire or socialism.

The problem we have now is not government power. It's the corruption of that power by economic forces.
You didn't read what I posted on "Robber Barons." If what you know to be true isn't , then you are bound to come to the wrong conclusion.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fire And Ice General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Website Traffic Analysis