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Global Warming Politics.; why politically polarizing?
Topic Started: Feb 19 2012, 11:48 PM (800 Views)
Jim Miller
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Why would anyone care what an America (U.S. for Paul) hater thinks about this country's economic system?
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Chris
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Voodoo environomics is a good example of politicizing of both deniers and alarmists.

The author is a denier, but that does not mean alarmists are not politicizing as he criticizes:
Quote:
 
At the very heart of voodoo environomics, of course, is the much-hyped theory linking man-made carbon dioxide (CO2) and climate change. Without the world’s policy focus on CO2 emissions, climate-change alarmists would be robbed of the ammunition they need to change and control human behavior via draconian energy policies. They also would be robbed of the substantial financial support needed to continue their biased research.

His being a denier does not deny his example:
Quote:
 
President Obama’s rejection of the Keystone XL pipeline wasn’t, as he claimed, based on science or the environment. It certainly wasn’t based on sound economic policy, either. The decision was, in fact, the product of voodoo environomics: a destructive blend of bad science based on fear-mongering and manipulated research, the bad economics of green-job fantasies and “starve the beast” energy politics.

Nor does his being a denier deny the effects of alarmists' politicizing:
Quote:
 
When adopted as official government policy, voodoo environomics can wreak havoc on the economy and represents a double whammy for working Americans. The admitted goal of CO2-slashing schemes such as “cap and trade” is to jack up the price of energies like gasoline and coal to make expensive alternative energies more competitive financially. Of course, their proponents hope you don’t realize that it’s ordinary Americans who are stuck paying higher prices for utilities and gasoline.

But the hit working Americans take under voodoo environomics doesn’t end with higher utility bills and gas prices. In bowing to environmental extremists in rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline project, Mr. Obama has abandoned working Americans - or should I say unemployed Americans in search of good jobs?


Edited by Chris, Feb 20 2012, 02:07 AM.
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Quote:
 
But the hit working Americans take under voodoo environomics doesn’t end with higher utility bills and gas prices. In bowing to environmental extremists in rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline project, Mr. Obama has abandoned working Americans - or should I say unemployed Americans in search of good jobs?


So now we get into politics.
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Chris
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telcoman
Feb 20 2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
But the hit working Americans take under voodoo environomics doesn’t end with higher utility bills and gas prices. In bowing to environmental extremists in rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline project, Mr. Obama has abandoned working Americans - or should I say unemployed Americans in search of good jobs?


So now we get into politics.
The entire piece I cited was politics, politics by the denier author, politics by Obama and alarmists.
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Brewster
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telcoman
Feb 20 2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
But the hit working Americans take under voodoo environomics doesn’t end with higher utility bills and gas prices. In bowing to environmental extremists in rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline project, Mr. Obama has abandoned working Americans - or should I say unemployed Americans in search of good jobs?

So now we get into politics.
Yup, and I see Chris is busy proving my point - he has swallowed the Koch brothers' codswallop completely.

First, Prices:
Quote:
 
Gas prices: Keystone XL will increase gas prices for Americans—Especially Farmers
•By draining Midwestern refineries of cheap Canadian crude into export-oriented refineries in the Gulf Coast, Keystone XL will increase the cost of gas for Americans.
•TransCanada’s 2008 Permit Application states “Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II [U.S. Midwest], are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil. Access to the USGC [U.S. Gulf Coast] via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in [the Midwest] by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude. The resultant increase in the price of heavy crude is estimated to provide an increase in annual revenue to the Canadian producing industry in 2013 of US $2 billion to US $3.9 billion.”
•Independent analysis of these figures found this would increase per-gallon prices by 20 cents/gallon in the Midwest.
•According to an independent analysis U.S. farmers, who spent $12.4 billion on fuel in 2009 could see expenses rise to $15 billion or higher in 2012 or 2013 if the pipeline goes through. At least $500 million of the added expense would come from the Canadian market manipulation.
LINK

Then, Jobs:
Quote:
 
An executive from TransCanada, builder of the KXL pipeline, admits that permanent jobs in the U.S. would number in the hundreds, not the tens of thousands claimed by supporters. Temporary construction jobs, lasting less than two years, would number between 2,500 and 4,650, according to a study from Cornell University.
LINK
Edited by Brewster, Feb 20 2012, 02:49 AM.
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Well you just got into partisan politics, a good illustration of the corruption of science by the right wing as thumper pointed out
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Chris
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Brewster
Feb 20 2012, 02:48 AM
telcoman
Feb 20 2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
 
But the hit working Americans take under voodoo environomics doesn’t end with higher utility bills and gas prices. In bowing to environmental extremists in rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline project, Mr. Obama has abandoned working Americans - or should I say unemployed Americans in search of good jobs?

So now we get into politics.
Yup, and I see Chris is busy proving my point - he has swallowed the Koch brothers' codswallop completely.

First, Prices:
Quote:
 
Gas prices: Keystone XL will increase gas prices for Americans—Especially Farmers
•By draining Midwestern refineries of cheap Canadian crude into export-oriented refineries in the Gulf Coast, Keystone XL will increase the cost of gas for Americans.
•TransCanada’s 2008 Permit Application states “Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II [U.S. Midwest], are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil. Access to the USGC [U.S. Gulf Coast] via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in [the Midwest] by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude. The resultant increase in the price of heavy crude is estimated to provide an increase in annual revenue to the Canadian producing industry in 2013 of US $2 billion to US $3.9 billion.”
•Independent analysis of these figures found this would increase per-gallon prices by 20 cents/gallon in the Midwest.
•According to an independent analysis U.S. farmers, who spent $12.4 billion on fuel in 2009 could see expenses rise to $15 billion or higher in 2012 or 2013 if the pipeline goes through. At least $500 million of the added expense would come from the Canadian market manipulation.
LINK

Then, Jobs:
Quote:
 
An executive from TransCanada, builder of the KXL pipeline, admits that permanent jobs in the U.S. would number in the hundreds, not the tens of thousands claimed by supporters. Temporary construction jobs, lasting less than two years, would number between 2,500 and 4,650, according to a study from Cornell University.
LINK
argumentum ad ignorantiam

Translation: Your'e arguing from ignorance of what all I posted.

Thanks, telco. :-)

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Chris
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telcoman
Feb 20 2012, 02:49 AM
Well you just got into partisan politics, a good illustration of the corruption of science by the right wing as thumper pointed out
Which was exactly what I was pointing out, the politics of both deniers and alarmists.
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Brewster
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You're quite correct, Paul. Deniers take a political stance, then when Climatologists or Warmists respond, we're accused of "politicizing" the subject.

OF COURSE the debate is political. Rational scientific debate on the basic understanding of Climate Science has been over for a decade. Deniers only have politics - and lies. (Assuming there's a difference.}

But the Gish Gallop will continue for another decade, probably. And chasing down the antiscientific, antifactual gibberish is tiresome.
Edited by Brewster, Feb 20 2012, 03:05 AM.
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Chris
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Brewster
Feb 20 2012, 03:03 AM
You're quite correct, Paul. Deniers take a political stance, then when Climatologists or Warmists respond, we're accused of "politicizing" the subject.

OF COURSE the debate is political. Rational scientific debate on the basic understanding of Climate Science has been over for a decade. Deniers only have politics - and lies. (Assuming there's a difference.}

But the Gish Gallop will continue for another decade, probably. And chasing down the antiscientific, antifactual gibberish is tiresome.
"OF COURSE the debate is political."

Thank you.

"Rational scientific debate on the basic understanding of Climate Science has been over for a decade."

According to alarmists, just as according to deniers, yes, it has. And yet we see continued collection of data, revision of models, and admission the not everything is known--as one would expect from scientists, science is tentative, incomplete and probabilistic.
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