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Chris Christie Vetos Gay Marriage Bill; Should it be left up to a vote of the people?
Topic Started: Feb 19 2012, 01:12 AM (1,597 Views)
Chris
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Thumper
Feb 19 2012, 10:14 AM
Chris
Feb 19 2012, 09:04 AM
Brewster
Feb 19 2012, 08:32 AM
Actually, the Kochs were leaders in the Libertarian movement at one time - David ran for VP in 1980.

It's my imprssion they got too wierd (controlling) even for the Libertarians, and got kicked out of the party.

I used to have a link to that, but I seem to have misplaced it.
Libertarian Party. But then you'd have to understand American politics to know libertarianism came way before.
Oh pray tell us Chris the wise. We sit here at your feet as humble listeners soaking up any and all words you can spare. Enlighten us naves and impart upon us your wisdom of all things Paulitic, oh great one.( We need the laughter)
Thanks for the insult, thumper.
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Thumper
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Your appreciation and gratitude is is to be commended.
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tomdrobin
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Chris
Feb 19 2012, 09:03 AM
tomdrobin
Feb 19 2012, 08:17 AM
Well most of the things Soros supports won't benefit him financially.

That isn't true of the Kochs. The libertarian ideology is more wealth and power for them.

Now, who you gonna believe?
"The libertarian ideology is more wealth and power for them."

Not you for that is false.
Libertarians are for minimal government interference and taxation. How would that not benefit the Kochs and their enterprises? When you take power away from the government, which in our case is a representative government, it leaves a power vacuum that is filled by economic entities. They have the wealth to promote their interests. Come to think of it they have done a pretty good job using their wealth to promote their interests with the current system. It would be far worse with less government.
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Chris
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"Libertarians are for minimal government interference and taxation."

That goes all the way back to classical liberalism, which libertarianism is a continuation of, while modern liberalism swung toward socialism. Much of what sparked the American Revolution had to do with overbearing government and taxation, just read the Declaration.

"How would that not benefit the Kochs and their enterprises?"

Actually, how would that not benefit everyone?

"When you take power away from the government, which in our case is a representative government, it leaves a power vacuum that is filled by economic entities."

No, it is returned to society where the power belongs.

Or do you have an example of an economic entity able to coerce what it wants like government? "They have the wealth to promote their interests" is not an example.

"Come to think of it they have done a pretty good job using their wealth to promote their interests with the current system."

Indeed, some have,through political means, the government, it's called crony capitalism.

But give us examples of economic entities gaining that power by economic means.
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tomdrobin
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Quote:
 
The symbol of the Gilded Age was the steel mill, filling the air with noise, the skies with smoke, the lungs with poison. Yet the steel mill was the symbol of progress, a source of national wealth and strength as it provided the necessary material for the railroad, the bridge and the skyscraper. It bespoke the age of great factories, where hundreds labored around the clock, often in appalling conditions and on low pay.

At the other end of the scale were the huge achievements of the “Robber Barons,” who built the great transcontinental railroads, huge factories, fabulous mansions and immense fortunes. Ruthless in their pursuit of business interests, they ran roughshod over their workers and cared little for the small businessmen whom they trampled into the ground. It was the age of “Social Darwinism,”—dog eat dog, no holds barred, hell for leather. At the same time, they did things for which they are remembered to this day—museums, universities, concert halls, hospitals and libraries bear their names.

Off to the side was the worker, the “man with the hoe,” humble, sore oppressed, struggling to keep himself and his family alive. The was the time of the “war between capital and labor,” and for a time it seemed that labor must lose. The period has been called the Age of exploitation, and everything was exploited: humans being and the environment.

The end of that period was “The Reckless Decade,” the 1890s, when, had it not been for the Progressive movement which began around the turn of the century, the country could easily have erupted into serious disturbances if—not outright rebellion—against the excesses of big capital


http://www.academicamerican.com/recongildedage/index.html
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Thumper
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I grew up in Pittsburgh Penna. What was good for US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, Jones and Laughlin Steel and the supporting coal mines and coke plants was good for the country. They had free reign to screw up Western Penna royally leaving behind mountainous slag/slate piles and polluted streams and land. The stench from the steel operation was terrible, but business was good. Andrew Carnegie made big bucks.
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Banandangees
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retired
Feb 19 2012, 09:40 AM
What happened to the gay marriage topic.
It was vetoed. :smoker:

But Christie did say he didn't think 129 (or so men/women) should make that decision, that he prefered to have the "choice" put up to a ballet vote by the people of NJ in a "next" election. Now what could be more fair than that? I think ole "fat-ass" made a good decision. If I lived in NJ and that issue came up I'd say great. I'd vote yes for same sex marriage in a civil union. As I mentioned before, maybe they truly love each other. Who are they hurting, unless it's themselves over time? You know, marriage can be brutal.
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Banandangees
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Feb 19 2012, 01:34 PM
I grew up in Pittsburgh Penna. What was good for US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, Jones and Laughlin Steel and the supporting coal mines and coke plants was good for the country. They had free reign to screw up Western Penna royally leaving behind mountainous slag/slate piles and polluted streams and land. The stench from the steel operation was terrible, but business was good. Andrew Carnegie made big bucks.
So where was the steel going to come from back then to build our buildings, our ships, our cars, trucks, bridges and where was the heat energy going to come from back then to forge that steel? Windmills and solar panels? Pittsburgh and Scranton are clean areas today. We bitch about the down side of industry but we continue to enjoy and participate in the use of their products. We bitch about how they made their products and how those businesses grew but we don't sacrifice ourselves of any of the benefits, comforts and conveniences they bring. We continue to buy and drive our cars, appreciate that we can cross the Monongahela, Allegheny and Ohio rivers (I mean, how do you drive around the Ohio river). Maybe it's one of those "them-companies-are-big-and-we're-not" thingies. I'm sure we'd bitch if we didn't have the products and conveniences those industries bring. Now we bitch because much of those steel building jobs are gone .... overseas. Bitch, bitch, bitch. It's seems that's become the American way. How do we leave the world the way it was made? How many billion people are there now to feed off it? It will recycle itself in time or be destroyed in the over-all-scheme-of-things. These businesses are of no long term significance. The world in view of the cosmos is of no long term significance..... I suppose. Then again, maybe what we do as individuals however, is of significance.... to ourselves... long term.
Edited by Banandangees, Feb 19 2012, 05:55 PM.
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campingken
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Ban,

The people don't get to decide on Constitutional rights. If they did Jim Crowe would still ve and well in the south.
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Banandangees
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campingken
Feb 20 2012, 11:51 AM
Ban,

The people don't get to decide on Constitutional rights. If they did Jim Crowe would still ve and well in the south.
True!

But what Christie is saying is, to let the people of NJ (by ballot vote) tell the legislators how to legislate "on such an important issue,."

Link

Quote:
 
Gov. Chris Christie has followed through on his promise to reject a bill allowing same-sex marriage in New Jersey by quickly vetoing the measure Friday and renewing his call for a ballot question to decide the issue.

In returning the bill to the Legislature, Christie reaffirmed his view that voters should decide whether to change the definition of marriage in New Jersey.

"I am adhering to what I've said since this bill was first introduced -- an issue of this magnitude and importance, which requires a constitutional amendment, should be left to the people of New Jersey to decide," Christie said in a statement. "I continue to encourage the Legislature to trust the people of New Jersey and seek their input by allowing our citizens to vote on a question that represents a profoundly significant societal change. This is the only path to amend our State Constitution and the best way to resolve the issue of same-sex marriage in our state.


Brew wrote this (on first page):

"It's amazing that the party that boasts that they are the defenders of personal freedom is also the party that wants to interfere in personal lives the most, on this topic and abortion, among others."

What this Republican "fat ass" is saying is that before a few politicians make a decision that affects the "personal lives," rights and freedoms of all the citizens of New Jersey, let them hear from the people themselves in the form of a ballot.... let them hear from all people, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Blacks, Whites, Italians, Jews, Polish, Irish, the whole lot.... then let the legislators cast their votes in light of what the people want. Again, what can be more fair in representing all the people about an issue that affects their personal lives. Let the people decide what they feel is best for their "personal lives" on this issue, not the government.

What better way is there for Christie to "defend the people's personal freedoms," on this issue of same-sex-marriage, than to let them decide for themselves, showing the legislators who represent them, the direction they wish for them to go?


It's amazing that the party that boasts that they are the defenders of the poor and common folk, who complain that a few, such as big business, manipulates politicians and policy that affect the lives of the people would object to a Governor vetoing the decision made by a few and instead giving the people themselves the opportunity to decide for themselves on this important issue that affect their personal lives.

Deception!
Edited by Banandangees, Feb 20 2012, 05:07 PM.
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